D&D 5E How do you handle someone who is not surprised but is unaware of any threats?

[77IM]

When they declare combat actions, combat starts.

Right, but do they get to go first in that combat? That seems a bit unfair to me.

But just ignoring the fact that they were the ones who started the combat also seems unfair. Advantage on initiative in exchange for restricted actions seemed like a nice balance to me and it seems to work.

If they tell you they walk around with Ready actions hit them on the head with the PHB and get back to DMing.

They don't walk around that way -- usually this happens as part of an ambush, parlay, or "Mexican stand-off." Since I don't allow the Ready action to take place outside the initiative order, I instead use the system of Advantage on initiative in exchange for commiting to their action.

 

[Flamestrike]

Right, but do they get to go first in that combat?

No, they dont. Once someone else at the table initiates hostilities by declaring a hostile action, the DM narrates that action commencing and calls for initiative.

On the PC who declared the hostile actions 1st turn in round 1, he can resolve that action, or change it to something else.

Example (Mexican Standoff):

DM: The Orcs stand 30 feet away from you, with weapons drawn, watching you warily. One steps forward to negotiate, speaking to you in Orcish...
Player 1 (Barbarian): Screw this, I charge the Orc and attack him trying to stab him in the face. Leeeeroy Jenkiniiins!
DM: Sigh. Ok, the Barbarian screams in rage and leaps forward, with his weapon drawn, charging towards the Orcs, who bellow war cries in return! Roll initiative.

------Transition from narrative time to combat time has now occurred-----

DM: OK... Player 2 (Wizard) you rolled the highest. You go first. The barbarian has taken a step forward, screaming in rage, and all hell looks like it's about to break loose. What do you do?
Player 2: I cast Mirror image and retreat back to the rear of the party.
DM: OK cool. Next in initiative order its the... Orcs! They race forward to meet the barbarian in mortal combat, meeting his charge with a charge of their own. (Moves each Orc in turn, rolls attacks as needed). Next its... you Leeroy.
Player 1: I enter rage and attack the nearest Orc, so I can hear the lamentations of their women! (rolls)

etc.

That said, a ruling of 'the first guy to declare a hostile action gets advantage on his initiative roll' is cool I guess. It's going to lead to a very trigger happy party though.

 

[Xetheral]

No, they dont. Once someone else at the table initiates hostilities by declaring a hostile action, the DM narrates that action commencing and calls for initiative.

On the PC who declared the hostile actions 1st turn in round 1, he can resolve that action, or change it to something else.

Example (Mexican Standoff):

DM: The Orcs stand 30 feet away from you, with weapons drawn, watching you warily. One steps forward to negotiate, speaking to you in Orcish...
Player 1 (Barbarian): Screw this, I charge the Orc and attack him trying to stab him in the face. Leeeeroy Jenkiniiins!
DM: Sigh. Ok, the Barbarian screams in rage and leaps forward, with his weapon drawn, charging towards the Orcs, who bellow war cries in return! Roll initiative.

------Transition from narrative time to combat time has now occurred-----

DM: OK... Player 2 (Wizard) you rolled the highest. You go first. The barbarian has taken a step forward, screaming in rage, and all hell looks like it's about to break loose. What do you do?
Player 2: I cast Mirror image and retreat back to the rear of the party.
DM: OK cool. Next in initiative order its the... Orcs! They race forward to meet the barbarian in mortal combat, meeting his charge with a charge of their own. (Moves each Orc in turn, rolls attacks as needed). Next its... you Leeroy.
Player 1: I enter rage and attack the nearest Orc, so I can hear the lamentations of their women! (rolls)

etc.

That said, a ruling of 'the first guy to declare a hostile action gets advantage on his initiative roll' is cool I guess. It's going to lead to a very trigger happy party though.

I have a quick question about your approach. You've narrated the Barbarian drawing his weapon and charging towards the orcs, but the Barbarian won't take his first turn until after the orcs go. On the orcs' turn, what square is the Barbarian standing in? (This matters for determining which orcs can reach the Barbarian, opportunity attacks, weapon ranges, and, if he dies, which square his body falls in.) Is the Barbarian still in the square he started in? Has he moved his speed and is now in melee range of one or more orcs? Is he actively in the process of moving and so halfway between his original space and the closest orc?

Also, if an orc does provoke an attack of opportunity from the Barbarian, does the Barbarian have his weapon drawn because you narrated that he drew it? Or since the Barbarian hasn't had an action yet with which to draw his weapon, is he still unarmed when the opportunity attack is provoked?

For clarity, my questions are not meant as criticism. My questions don't have right or wrong answers--I'm just curious how you would personally resolve them under your approach.

 

[Flamestrike]

I have a quick question about your approach. You've narrated the Barbarian drawing his weapon and charging towards the orcs, but the Barbarian won't take his first turn until after the orcs go. On the orcs' turn, what square is the Barbarian standing in?

The same square.

Remember despite the stop/start nature of turn based combat, no-one is standing there frozen in time while other people take turns and move around the board doing stuff, only to freeze themselves when the next guy moves. Everyone is moving at the same time, and attacking at the same time etc.

Squares are abstractions, like turns and rounds are.

In a round where (say) a Barbarian is chasing a fleeing Orc (with the higher initiative) it seems to us (at the table) the Barbarian is frozen in time while the Orc moves his full speed, with the Barbarian following up afterwards (while the Orc is frozen in time). The 'in game' reality (to an in game observer) is that the Barbarian and Orc are moving at the same time, the Barbarian hot on the Orcs tail for the whole round.

The tabletop positioning of miniatures etc doesn't match precisely the in game reality. The in game reality is (and always is) everyone is moving at once, while on the table (from our perspective) the inverse is true.

Also, if an orc does provoke an attack of opportunity from the Barbarian, does the Barbarian have his weapon drawn because you narrated that he drew it? Or since the Barbarian hasn't had an action yet with which to draw his weapon, is he still unarmed when the opportunity attack is provoked?

Halfway out the sheath (action not completed yet) so unarmed AoO only. He hasnt had a turn yet, so his action has yet to be resolved.

The Barbarian could have narrated (prior to combat starting) that he is slowly drawing a weapon. As long as (in the DMs view) this does not trigger combat starting, he's fine to do that (action completed). If going for a weapon triggers combat, then he doesnt complete that action till his turn on round 1, and may indeed choose to do something else entirely when that turn comes around (hastily sheathing his half drawn weapon and instead pulling out a potion for example).

 

[Xetheral]

The same square.

Remember despite the stop/start nature of turn based combat, no-one is standing there frozen in time while other people take turns and move around the board doing stuff, only to freeze themselves when the next guy moves. Everyone is moving at the same time, and attacking at the same time etc.

Squares are abstractions, like turns and rounds are.

In a round where (say) a Barbarian is chasing a fleeing Orc (with the higher initiative) it seems to us (at the table) the Barbarian is frozen in time while the Orc moves his full speed, with the Barbarian following up afterwards (while the Orc is frozen in time). The 'in game' reality (to an in game observer) is that the Barbarian and Orc are moving at the same time, the Barbarian hot on the Orcs tail for the whole round.

The tabletop positioning of miniatures etc doesn't match precisely the in game reality. The in game reality is (and always is) everyone is moving at once, while on the table (from our perspective) the inverse is true.



Halfway out the sheath (action not completed yet) so unarmed AoO only. He hasnt had a turn yet, so his action has yet to be resolved.

The Barbarian could have narrated (prior to combat starting) that he is slowly drawing a weapon. As long as (in the DMs view) this does not trigger combat starting, he's fine to do that (action completed). If going for a weapon triggers combat, then he doesnt complete that action till his turn on round 1, and may indeed choose to do something else entirely when that turn comes around (hastily sheathing his half drawn weapon and instead pulling out a potion for example).

Thanks for answering! I have a follow-up question:

Let's say the orcs kill the Barbarian before the Barbarian's turn comes up. In the turn-by-turn of combat, the Barbarian died before he could draw his weapon. Am I correct in interpreting, however, that at your table, after the battle, his corpse will be found with his weapon drawn, and in-game observers heard the Barbarian shout "Leeeeroy Jenkiniiins!" and saw the Barbarian start combat by charging the orcs?

Or do you instead change the narration post-hoc to match the combat results, where the orcs initiated violence first in response to the wizard casting Mirror Image, and the Barbarian died before he could draw?

 

[Flamestrike]

Thanks for answering! I have a follow-up question:

Let's say the orcs kill the Barbarian before the Barbarian's turn comes up. In the turn-by-turn of combat, the Barbarian died before he could draw his weapon. Am I correct in interpreting, however, that at your table, after the battle, his corpse will be found with his weapon drawn, and in-game observers heard the Barbarian shout "Leeeeroy Jenkiniiins!" and saw the Barbarian start combat by charging the orcs?

Yes, from the POV of the characters, the barbarian screamed a war cry and went for his weapon, springing forward towards the Orcs.

It was commencing that action, that triggered the switch from narrative time to combat time (and triggered a Dexterity ability check - initiative - from all present to determine reaction speed, and so forth to that declared action commencing).

Unfortunately for our Barbarian, he flubbed the Dexterity check (or the Orcs and resident Wizard nailed theirs) and his action got resolved last.

As to whether the PCs find his corpse with sword in hand? You could narrate it either way. It's pretty unimportant at that point isnt it? Maybe he managed to clear it from the scabbard with his last dying act after getting cut down by Orcs he met in the middle of the room with his charge.

You're back in narrative time at that point, so whatever works best for the narrative. Go with that.

 

[Maxperson]

Remember despite the stop/start nature of turn based combat, no-one is standing there frozen in time while other people take turns and move around the board doing stuff, only to freeze themselves when the next guy moves. Everyone is moving at the same time, and attacking at the same time etc.

That's what people say, but it's objectively untrue. If it were true, it would be impossible for combat to begin with the Barbarian starting to charge, yet allowing the orcs to move 30-60 feet and engage him in the square he started in. He literally must be frozen in that square for that to happen. Otherwise, he would at the very least meet the orcs at the halfway point.

This is a necessary evil for something like combat in an RPG. Having a truly simultaneous combat would be incredibly slow and unwieldy.

 

[Xetheral]

Yes, from the POV of the characters, the barbarian screamed a war cry and went for his weapon, springing forward towards the Orcs.

It was commencing that action, that triggered the switch from narrative time to combat time (and triggered a Dexterity ability check - initiative - from all present to determine reaction speed, and so forth to that declared action commencing).

Unfortunately for our Barbarian, he flubbed the Dexterity check (or the Orcs and resident Wizard nailed theirs) and his action got resolved last.

As to whether the PCs find his corpse with sword in hand? You could narrate it either way. It's pretty unimportant at that point isnt it? Maybe he managed to clear it from the scabbard with his last dying act after getting cut down by Orcs he met in the middle of the room with his charge.

You're back in narrative time at that point, so whatever works best for the narrative. Go with that.

Thanks for clarifying! I can definitely see how that approach works.

As a matter of personal taste, I prefer houseruling so that the action that initiates combat also happens first in the turn-by-turn abstraction. It's important to me that the causal chain of events remains the same between the narrative and the abstraction of combat. So at my table, if only one character wants to go first, great, that's simple. If multiple people want to go first, then we roll initiative, and whomever rolled highest is the one whose action initiates combat in the narrative, and the first one to act in the turn order.

To show how my approach would work with the same example, if only the Barbarian wanted to go first, he would go first automatically. Everyone else would roll initiative to determine subsequent turn order. If the orcs (or another PC) also want to pre-emptively attack, then they roll initiative too. The action in the fiction that starts the combat is the action of whomever wins that initiative roll. Then everyone else (including anyone who didn't want to initiate combat) goes in initiative order, as per normal. (Note that this isn't a case where the player who speaks first gets to attack first. Anyone who wants to initiate combat has a chance of going first, regardless of the order in which they declare that intent.)

 

[auburn2]

I for one am not really sure the point of alert if combat starts and you have to waste your turn doing next to nothing. Might as well have been surprised in that case.

No you can cast a defensive spell or hide or ready on your first turn and move all things surprised characters can't do. All you can't do is attack, and you can even try that with an AOE spell and hope to get lucky

Also surprise is only one bonus of alert, and really the worst of the three. Hidden creatures not getting advantage and the +5 to initiative are bigger factors usually.

 

[Flamestrike]

No you can cast a defensive spell or hide or ready on your first turn and move all things surprised characters can't do. All you can't do is attack, and you can even try that with an AOE spell and hope to get lucky

Investigator Rogues and Rangers can Search as a bonus action (enabling them to find the enemy, and attack as an action). Pretty sure there was an UA Skill feat that let you Search as a bonus action as well.

Sorcerers can Search as an action, and then cast a Quickened spell at the detected enemy. Fighters can Action surge [Search + Attack]

There are a few other ways to do it as well.