How do YOU play a bard?

[Emiricol]

I usually play the Inspire Courage as a prefight call to arms, rallying cry, whatever the situation called for. Then stop. Most fights are over just as the effects wear off. If not, he steps back and cries out for the party to rally around him, so on so forth, renewing the effect. I *don't* wade into battle singing the Battle Hymn of the Republic or whatever. With most of my bards, that is.

So, in your game, let's say it's a 20th level game, and the party has to rally the kingdom's army to fight a great war.

Player: "My bard will deliver a rousing speech to the masses to inspire them to fight the demons.
Emiricol: Roll a perform check.
Player: *rolls an 18" "Awesome, so I've got +26 ranks after everything is added, so I got a total of a 44. Kick ass!"
Emiricol: Ok, so the army is excited, and heads off into war.

Come on!

Bards are different! They're a different can of worms altogether. I wouldn't ask my player to actually walk a tightrope or pick a lock to convey what he is trying to do in the game. We can all envision that pretty regularly. But, for the bard to inspire courage, or rally the troops, or quell a rebellion, or whatever - with a meager dice roll? That seems so bland to me.

This is no different than casting a high level cleric spell. So I disagree - it is entirely the same thing, in my opinion. I can see where you stand with your own opinion, but I don't share it.

 

[Djeta Thernadier]

My sorcerer has a few ranks of bard as well. She often performs when her & the party go to an inn to earn her nights stay and meals. She plays a mandolin and also tells stories and poems of her adventures. Sometimes, she entertains people with minor spells and with her familiar (a fruit bat).

I don't really act out most of the actual stories though (mainly due to time). I'd love to though. As for being a bard IRL, I am pretty boring and not very outgoing but have had a lot of expereince in theater.

 

[Sejs]

Bards are different! They're a different can of worms altogether. I wouldn't ask my player to actually walk a tightrope or pick a lock to convey what he is trying to do in the game. We can all envision that pretty regularly. But, for the bard to inspire courage, or rally the troops, or quell a rebellion, or whatever - with a meager dice roll? That seems so bland to me.

And to expect the bard player to have to be skilled in the things his character can do seems... cruel. If D&D is an escape, telling a player that 'well, you can't give a rousing speech, so your character, who's sole focus is public speaking, can't do it either' really defeats the purpose of playing a role outside of yourself, doesn't it?

 

[Crothian]

All right, Crothian. If we play together at GenCon, I want to see you play a Bard. I've only met one other person play a good bard, and he was nearly a bard in real life, so it wasn't much of a stretch.

Did you feel like the Bard was viable all the way to 20th level? I assume this was a 3.0 Bard?

I would think at 20th level a bard (3.0 especially) would be totally outclassed by the rogue in skills, outmatched by the casters with magic, and outgunned by the fighters in combat. So, unless it was a high role-playing, lots of social interactions kind of game, the bard would be just completely useless on most counts.

I am not a Bard in real life. I can write poetry and Haikus, I play a few intrstruments, read music, and have a more then a passing understand of debate, speeches, etc. But I don't seek the spotlight. At a gaming table I can stand and give a blundered speech, but not in real life if it counted for something.

The bard was terrible in 3.0 The spells were bad, the song abilities were silly, it didn;t feel like a bard. THe skilll points were streched thin, and I was human with a 16 intellgence. And the feats selection was just bad. I'd have to go find him for what feats I took, but mostly I was scouring books lookinng for something that fit him.

I was totally the weakest character in the group. It wasn't even close. If I didn't have a fun character and good concept (plus a fun group to role play with) I might have given up. In combat, I sang and did some fighting. But I was rarely even seen as a threat, so that was nice.

I'll play a Bard at Gen Con if we can game together. I make no promises on how good I'll be. I find con games are tougher to play then campaign game. I perfer long interactive campaigns with complex plots.

 

[The Sigil]

Dwarven bard...

My most recent bard was a dwarven alchemist. I played him as a character who had an immense fascination with minerals and other "natural" materials (hence alchemy) first and a fascination with music/sound second (the way sound at certain frequencies caused materials to vibrate, for instance, or the way that you could change the "sound" of a wooden flute by petrifying the wood).

His instrument of choice? The bagpipes... because he put in pockets on the bag portion of the bagpipes various alchemical concoctions that he could whip out at a moment's notice.

How do you role-play such a character? He's constantly humming snatches of half-remembered songs under his breath. When using bardic lore, I always had him remember a legendary aria or an ancient ode to explain why he knew things. He muttered dwarven chants softly to himself as the party explored. When the party got into combat, he raised the level of his chants from a low mutter to an excited shout of encouragement and "reliving" of ancient deeds that were similar to our party's fights in between puffing on the bagpipes... e.g., when we faced down a large pack of orcs at low levels, he sang a song recalling the tale of Apradrus, the famous dwarven warrior whose career began defending the citizenry from the local orc hordes. At higher levels, it was the song of Elderil, the wicked elvish sorcerer who was brought low by a combination of his own arrogance and the gritty determination of the half-orc Kiensza... with the fortissimos subtly timed to match the attacks of our group. After combat, when encouraging a heal check (inspire competence) to save our dying friend, he told the tale of how Kierian the halfling was wounded protecting his friends and by the grace of the gods was delivered from death's door again.

Listen to "Night on Bald Mountain" or "Mars, Bringer of War" some time... and imagine a bard who's always singing/giving you a background tune but who only "uses his bardic music" and "gets you bonuses" when the music kicks up to the dramatically appropriate levels. In other words, he doesn't just start singing in the middle of combat, but rather he's been singing all along... giving you dull background music that accelerates into a rising, stirring tune when you "most need it" (using the music only at those times).

Maybe that doesn't help you much, but remember how the music in LotR movies always swelled at the dramatically appropriate moment... or just before? How you felt the power and the tension coursing through you and if you had been in the scene, you could have taken on the foe? That's how this guy played it... dramatic when adventuring, soft-spoken when not, and always whistling or humming some snatch of a tune.

--The Sigil

 

[Agback]

Yeah, the picture of someone singing in a combat is weird. When I've played a bard, I tend to start the insipire courage effect and then stop. I only did it for one round and then let it go for the five rounds it lasts. So basically that cames down to a short speech or tune as the battle starts. Kinda like Geoffrey in "A Knight's Tale," giving his intro.

Or like Blondel singing the Chanson de Roland in front of Coeur de Lion's troops on the Third Crusade.

But can't you fight while you are singing? Or sing while you are fighting? One of the cool things I would like to be able to do with a properly-generalised version of D&D is to sub out the paladin's mount for some bardic singing abilities. Anderson's version of Holger the Dane is cool and all, but I'd rather emulate the Templars and Hospitallers who cut lanes through armies while singing the Dies Irae.

Regards,


Agback

 

[Demmero]

I would never, EVER, consider playing a bard in a face-to-face game. The "I sing to Inspire Courage" line would grow old fast, and the whole concept of singing during a battle would indeed seem kind of lame. And most bards just aren't built well for combat. I'd feel like a goof if I tried to sing or recite a bit of poetry at a gaming table, so the class would offer little RPing charm to me.

But these days I play exclusively online...so I decided to try my first bard. And she's now my favorite character, hands down. I wrote up little snippets of songs for each of her spells and stored them in macros, and when I decide to cast a spell I just hit a few keys and Presto!, my character's actually singing in the game. I've even written a few longer songs (3-4 stanzas each) to use when she needs to Inspire Courage. I send one stanza of the song to the screen each round, and then take whatever other action I'm entitled to (if any).

Yeah, it takes some extra work, but I have a fairly long train commute to and from work each day and do most of my composing there. I think it's worth the extra effort because it adds a semblence of realism and flair to the game.

As for the bard herself, she's very untraditional. Her background is that she ran away from an arranged marriage, made her way to the big city, fell in with the wrong crowd and became a prostitute and exotic dancer at a fairly high-brow gentlemen's club where she picked up bits and pieces of the bardic craft from the more traditional bards who occasionally played at the club. She grew to enjoy the performing part of her job, getting a rush out of being the center of attention of her adoring audience. Now she's left the club and is out in the real world, tring to make her mark as a legit bard. She's strong-willed, pig-headed, self-centered, ambitious, and has set her sights on becoming famous. Kind of uppitty at times, too.

She can't fight worth a lick, but she's a blast to RP. The only bard quality I'm having trouble reconciling to her is Bardic Knowledge; her character background really doesn't allow for her to have a very extensive amount of worldly knowledge. She probably picked up some bits and pieces of news and info when she worked at the club from the bards who passed through the place and from some of her clients there, and that's a start. I've decided that to make her extent of knowledge a bit more believable, I'm going to bring out a curious nature in her...have her sit around taverns at night, eavesdrop on folks in the marketplace, generally stick her eyes, nose, and ears into any situation that presents itself. This tactic might lead to some adventure opportunities or might simply get her into hot water...but that'll give the rest of the party something to do

So that's how I play MY bard...including working some song and dance into the mix.

 

[Tessarael]

I wonder how a Rog5/Ftr5/Wiz10 would compare to a 20th level Bard?

Let's make this Rogue 4/Fighter 4/Wizard 6/Arcane Trickster 6 compared to Bard 20. Rogue and Wizard have good synergy, as Wizard has INT as primary ability. 20th level characters, so I'll assume 32 point buy. Bard needs CHA and DEX. R/F/W/AT needs INT and DEX. For simplicity, I'm assuming similar point buys.


Bard R/F/W/AT
STR 12 12
DEX 16 16
CON 12 12
INT 10 16
WIS 10 10
CHA 16 10


I'm going to ignore where the ability boosts with level go. Let's assume it's not INT, otherwise the R/F/W/AT will have even better skills.

HP for Bard: 6+19d6+20 = 92.5
HP for R/F/W/AT: 6+3d6+4d10+12d4+20 = 88.5
Fairly similar HP.

BAB for Bard: +15
BAB for R/F/W/AT: 3+4+3+3= +13
A bit worse for the R/F/W/AT.

Saves for Bard:
Fort +6+1=+7
Ref +12+3=+15
Will +12

Saves for R/F/W/AT:
Fort +1+4+2+2+1 = +10
Ref +4+1+2+5+3 = +15
Will +1+1+5+5 = +12

R/F/W/AT has better Fortitude save.

Spellcasting for Bard: 6th level spells
Spellcasting for R/F/W/AT (12th): 6th level spells
Fairly comparable, especially if the R/F/W/AT is a specialist.

Skill points for Bard: 6*23 = 138
Skill points for R/F/W/AT: (8+3)*7+(2+3)*(4+6)+(4+3)*6 = 169
The R/F/W/AT has many more skill points.

Feats for Bard: 7 at 20th if non-Human.
Feats for R/F/W/AT: 7 at 20th if non-Human + 3 from Fighter + 1 from Wizard.

R/F/W/AT spends feats on Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization, closing the BAB gap, and with the 7d6 of Sneak Attack damage being a lot better in combat.

The Bard does have Bardic Knowledge and Bardic music to make up for fewer feats and the lack of Sneak Attack. And the Bard can cast spells in light armor.

At the end of the day, I would far prefer to play the R/F/W/AT. Armor (i.e. Bracers) is a bit more expensive than a Mithril Shirt, but the R/F/W/AT will be way better in melee, and has a more versatile set of spells - and more firepower with Evocation spells.

An alternative build for the Bard is Rogue 3/Bard 7/Arcane Trickster 10, but that is not going to be as good a build for spellcasting.

Just my thoughts ...

 

[James Heard]

How fascinating. So, you actually made a "jack-of-all-trades" by literally being a jack of all trades? In that, you actually took levels of everything you could get your hands on!

I started out as a bard (3.0), took a level of Cleric a little later on because being able to turn a little bit was useful and the Domain bonuses meshed well(Healing added to my bard cures and Trickery gave me a useful bonus spell), then I took a Ranger level so I could fight with two weapons without burning feats(let's face it Bards can't hit the broad side of a barn, so two weapon fighting is a no brainer - let luck rule) and the Favored Enemy:Humans bonus to certain skills was gravy), and kind of took a hit when I took Wiz up to a level that I could cast 2nd level spells (and I wouldn't go up to casting 3rd level spells because I didn't want to be tempted to start adding AoE evocations to my repertoire).

What an interesting idea. Finally, a reason to take a bunch of classes that doesn't have a powergaming basis behind it!

As you can see, I wasn't blind to the implications of what I was doing altogether though. I was playing a sweet talking half-elven backstabber, completely at home with the rest of the party while loathing them and worshipping a goddess with a clearly outlined thought that I was putting one over on her. Mostly I was trying to make sure that I didn't step on the other PCs toes, and Bard is just too lovely of a class to multiclass out of anyways. If I had thought I could have gotten away with it I'd have tried to collect a Monk or a Paladin level, before the character died I had already half convinced the party Paladin that I was a "deep cover" Paladin.

I wonder how a Rog5/Ftr5/Wiz10 would compare to a 20th level Bard? (ignoring the lack of the musical ability)

It would depend on where you took the Bard I think, Bards really can go a lot of different ways depending on what skills you focus on and where you place your stats I suppose. The big one would be the lack of healing magic and Bardic Knowledge in my book, the lack of spontaneous casting, and the fact that I'm pretty sure that with that 5/5 he'd pack a big wallop for flank fighting compared to the bard in combat.

 

[Shadowdweller]

Ultimately weak or not, bards are certainly damn good at buffing. I note in 3.5 a very interesting aspect of bardic music: no time limit for many forms. Technically speaking, a first level bard could continue using his one Inspire Courage all day long. While this might be unrealistic in practical terms, it's certainly a good deal of power for a 1st level character. Adding two HD worth of temporary hitpoints to the majority of the party a considerable number of times per day isn't half bad either.