How does one balance a PrC?

[bret]

Typically, I feel that across 10 levels, a spellcasting prestige class should lose 1-3 levels. Further, they should almost never gain a spellcasting level at 1st level of the PRC; it's equivalent to front loading.

Do you cause the Fighter PrC to lose BAB and number of attacks?

For a straight spellcaster, caster level and spells per day is their power. Dropping levels of spellcasting ability is about on par with dropping the BAB progression on a PrC for a fighter to ¾.

Dropping 4 caster levels is a huge penalty, the character would never gain 9th level spells. What sort of power are you going to give that makes up for not having access to Time Stop, Shapechange, or Prismatic Sphere?

I know that this is a frequently discussed tradeof. When the PrC is basically a straight spellcaster, dropping spellcasting levels is a huge thing.

On the other hand, it is perfectly appropriate for the multiclassing PrC such as Spellsword or Arcane Trickster which are combining the abilities of two different classes.

 

[Psion]

Do you cause the Fighter PrC to lose BAB and number of attacks?

Typcially feats are the first thing to go. If you give a fighter PrC all the feats, BAB, hp, etc., that a fighter has and more, there is a problem. Again, barring punishing entry requirements.

For a straight spellcaster, caster level and spells per day is their power. Dropping levels of spellcasting ability is about on par with dropping the BAB progression on a PrC for a fighter to ¾.

Again, missing feats as a balancing factor.

Dropping 4 caster levels is a huge penalty, the character would never gain 9th level spells.

I agree. Good thing I never recommended it.

 

[Voadam]

Regarding spellcasting classes specifically:

You shuold be more powerful than the classes in Tome & Blood and less powerful than the ones in the 3.5 DMG.

So more powerful than a T&B arcane trickster and less powerful than a 3.5 DMG arcane trickster? I hadn't looked for differences before, I guess I should

 

[Voadam]

I also like the picking up an extra opposition school as a possible balancer for good spell classes. This is done in the red mage, as well as a class in librum equitis and Joe's book of enchantment.

 

[Psion]

So more powerful than a T&B arcane trickster and less powerful than a 3.5 DMG arcane trickster? I hadn't looked for differences before, I guess I should

Cute, but kidding aside, I think AT is fine in either case (though I know there are those who would disagree). More to the point, try more powerful than spellsword and less powerful that eldritch knight, and I think you are on to something.

Perhaps my generalization is a bit sweeping. I don't think I would go towards the 3.0/frcs archmage from the one in 3.5. I guess my primary issue with the balance of 3.5 is that with the MT and EK, they under-rate the role of versatility in the effectiveness of the classes.

 

[jasamcarl]

Cute, but kidding aside, I think AT is fine in either case (though I know there are those who would disagree). More to the point, try more powerful than spellsword and less powerful that eldritch knight, and I think you are on to something.

Perhaps my generalization is a bit sweeping. I don't think I would go towards the 3.0/frcs archmage from the one in 3.5. I guess my primary issue with the balance of 3.5 is that with the MT and EK, they under-rate the role of versatility in the effectiveness of the classes.

Really? I think most have come to realize that in this game, versatility translates into very little power, because of the way combat actions work. Unless an ability works as a free action and/or works a comparitvly much larger number of times per day relative to the next stronger option, it just doesn't have that much effect on the power of the class, i.e. outside of a few very specific circumstances, versatility does not translate in much damage/round capability for the party.

EDIT: Unless, of course, you are talking about a purely flavor thing. Having a lot of options is nice, but having a lot of useless options doesn't really make the game more fun. One should be able to optmize and still have as many valid options open as possible.

 

[Psion]

Really? I think most have come to realize that in this game, versatility translates into very little power, because of the way combat actions work. Unless an ability works as a free action and/or works a comparitvly much larger number of times per day relative to the next stronger option, it just doesn't have that much effect on the power of the class, i.e. outside of a few very specific circumstances, versatility does not translate in much damage/round capability for the party.

Ah, so now we are at the root why we so fundamentally disagree on this issue. AFAIC, there are other factors to consider about balance than how much damage you can pump out per round. See mouseferatu's post for more on this.

A fundamental determiner of balance is role balance. If a single character is markedly more effective at grappling with a variety of challegnes -- not just dealing sustained combat damage -- than any other character in the party, that character hogs the spotlight. And this is a problem in enjoyment of the game. One of the fundamental elements/draws of the D&D gaming experience is the "team" atmosphere.

Having a lot of options is nice, but having a lot of useless options doesn't really make the game more fun.

Sure, this is a fair argument why some multiclassing does not work as is. If you simply split your levels between divergant classes, the focus become too weak for you to credibly hold up any role.

But you are ignoring the middle condition here; creating a false dichotomy. Just because some multiclassing is weak does not mean that heaping on the overlapping class abilities isn't too much, and I maintain that it is.

 

[Arnwyn]

How does one balance a PrC? Especially one that gives full spellcaster advancement?

Balance full caster advancement? You can't. (Sorry - those full spellcaster advancement PrCs bug me.)

they under-rate the role of versatility in the effectiveness of the classes.

Can I get a "hell yeah"? Hell yeah.

Suggesting that everything in D&D be only balanced in terms of raw "power" (damage per round) is laughable at best and completely ignores the many aspects of D&D, much less a table-top RPG in general.

 

[jasamcarl]

Ah, so now we are at the root why we so fundamentally disagree on this issue. AFAIC, there are other factors to consider about balance than how much damage you can pump out per round. See mouseferatu's post for more on this.

A fundamental determiner of balance is role balance. If a single character is markedly more effective at grappling with a variety of challegnes -- not just dealing sustained combat damage -- than any other character in the party, that character hogs the spotlight. And this is a problem in enjoyment of the game. One of the fundamental elements/draws of the D&D gaming experience is the "team" atmosphere.



Sure, this is a fair argument why some multiclassing does not work as is. If you simply split your levels between divergant classes, the focus become too weak for you to credibly hold up any role.

But you are ignoring the middle condition here; creating a false dichotomy. Just because some multiclassing is weak does not mean that heaping on the overlapping class abilities isn't too much, and I maintain that it is.

Uh, no. Read again. Specifically where i note that versatility is only rewarded in a very specific set of circumstances, i.e the ability to effect non-combat situations is highly dependent on what the DM decides to throw at you, and is thus passive. The core of the game and survivability of the party is determined mostly in combat. Combat is the 'spotlight'.

Also please note that damage/round means on the part of the party. Combat has firms 'roles' and this is the place where it is most appropriate to discuss role balance. I aknowledged this in my intial post, but you decided to simplify it for whatever reason. Givin the extreme limitations on time in most encounters, most abilities simply don't show up in play, so an EK or MT have little chance to show anyone else up, and what role they do decide to fill in any given combat, they tend to do so poorly. The only ability that I can think of that has the possibility to dominate an encounter is turn/rebuke undead, but for the MT, this is pretty much not a credible option.

Note also I said that versatility translates into power, just very little. There is a comparitivly small aggregate effect of have a range of extra abilities over the course of a campaign, but I don't think anyone has made the argument in the case of either the MT or EK that it doesn't come at a significant price.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi all!

Perhaps I can be of assistance...it will be interesting to hear feedback on this idea anyway.

I break down the classes into component parts and then give them a rating derived from logical comparisons of myriad aspects.

1. Ability Scores

+1/4 Levels = +0.025 per Level

2. BAB

Good = +0.2
Medium = +0.15
Poor = +0.1

3. Class Features

Either based on feats or integrated spell levels.

1 feat per level adds +0.2 (so a Fighter with 11/20 would add +0.11)

Integrated Spell Levels

Wizard/Sorceror = +0.375
Cleric = +0.3
Druid = +0.25
Bard = +0.15
Paladin/Ranger = +0.1

4. Feat Progression (not bonus feats from class features)

1 feat/3 Levels = +0.066

5. Hit Dice

d4 = +0.125
d6 = +0.175
d8 = +0.225
d10 = +0.275
d12 = +0.325

6. Saving Throws

Each Good Save = +0.06
Each Poor Save = +0.03

7. Skill Points

Int +8 = +0.08
Int +6 = +0.06
Int +4 = +0.04
Int +2 = +0.02

8. Equipment

Level of PC wealth = +0.2
Level of NPC wealth = +0.125


So a reasonably balanced class or prestige class level will add up to between +0.8 and +0.85 before adding Equipment.

The easiest Class to deconstruct is the Fighter.

eg. Fighter Class Level (Deconstruction)
Ability Scores CR +0.025
BAB (As Fighter) CR +0.2
Class Features: +11 Feats/20 Levels CR +0.11
Feats (+1/3 Levels) CR +0.066
Hit Dice (d10) CR +0.275
Saves (one good) CR +0.12
Skills (Int + 2) CR +0.02

Each Fighter Level = CR +0.806 (0.8)
with PC Equipment = CR +1.006 (1)

For less obviously rated class features try and rate the ability in terms of a feat. Is the ability as good as a feat? Weaker? Stronger? Or an actual feat itself already?

eg. Many of the Rogues class features are equivalent to feats so these are easily rated as such.

I believe anyone can deconstruct/reconstruct and balance any class/prestige class using the above method.

Generally I would suggest allowing a +/-5% rating to still be balanced, no point trying to be too exacting.

Incidently the Cleric and Druid Classes are +10% stronger than most other classes. The Mystic Theurge Prestige Class is +30% stronger than most other classes.

Any questions/comments?