• The VOIDRUNNER'S CODEX is LIVE! Explore new worlds, fight oppressive empires, fend off fearsome aliens, and wield deadly psionics with this comprehensive boxed set expansion for 5E and A5E!

How does one balance a PrC?

jasamcarl

First Post
arnwyn said:

Balance full caster advancement? You can't. :mad: (Sorry - those full spellcaster advancement PrCs bug me.)

Can I get a "hell yeah"? Hell yeah.

Suggesting that everything in D&D be only balanced in terms of raw "power" (damage per round) is laughable at best and completely ignores the many aspects of D&D, much less a table-top RPG in general.

Well that ccan't really be defended. If the abilities that a full spellcasting prc provides are small, they generally won't show up in play, and in fact can be easily balanced by feat prereqs....
 

log in or register to remove this ad

Psion

Adventurer
Uh, no. Read again.

You know it's comments like this that cause so many people to get in flame wars with you. Your position is not inherently correct, so you need not assume that if someone disagrees with you then it MUST be because there is a misunderstanding or a failure in reading comprehension.

I read what you had to say. I just disagree with it.

Specifically where i note that versatility is only rewarded in a very specific set of circumstances, i.e the ability to effect non-combat situations is highly dependent on what the DM decides to throw at you, and is thus passive. The core of the game and survivability of the party is determined mostly in combat. Combat is the 'spotlight'.

I understand this attitude, I just vehemently disagree with it. This kind of thinking is responsible for most of the bad ideas in 3.5e AFAIAC (e.g., pokemounts.)

The oringinal 3e designers did not approach class design in this manner, and the core classes still don't reflect this sort of thinking. Else the fighter would be patently overpowered, as other classes like rogues do have noncombat abilities factored into their balance.

Now it is true that combat is a major part, thus the reason you see things like sneak attack to help keep rogues effective and limited spell slots to keep mages from contributing more combat damage than fighters. But, again, you are creating a false dichotomy. Just because combat has enough of an emphasis that most classes are optimized to have an effective role in combat does not mean that combat is (or should be) the only determiner of balance.

Also please note that damage/round means on the part of the party. Combat has firms 'roles' and this is the place where it is most appropriate to discuss role balance. I aknowledged this in my intial post, but you decided to simplify it for whatever reason.

Since you are not saying something I agree with here, I don't see how I missed anything. Characters are most certainly balanced without outside of combat issues in mind. Hint: if they weren't, then there would be no CR/ECL dichotomy.

Givin the extreme limitations on time in most encounters, most abilities simply don't show up in play,

Given that most adventures involve several combat encounters and several noncombat challenges, enough will certainly show up in play that it certainly will be telling.

If you are only having one short encounter a day all the time, then it is a wonder that single classes arcane casters aren't dominating your game. Fortunately, that is not the core assumption behind the way classes and adventures are structured.

In short, what you really seem to be telling me here is that EK and MT work the way you run a game. That's fine, if it works for the way you play, then by all means use them.
 
Last edited:

DonAdam

Explorer
I also like the picking up an extra opposition school as a possible balancer for good spell classes. This is done in the red mage, as well as a class in librum equitis and Joe's book of enchantment.

I'll second this.

Another option is to increase the level of spells not related to the PrC's specialty by one. Then an illusionist PrC (which should be a feat chain to begin with) could get to those high level illusion spells as fast as anyone but would lose access to the highest level of spells from other schools.

My first requirement for a PrC is, mechanics aside, why is this different than a core class with the proper skill/feat/spell selections? I think the Dragon Disciple is great (in concept, not execution) but I would much prefer a feat or rule that would help out multiclassed spellcasters.
 

Psion

Adventurer
Originally posted by Upper_Krust
Incidently the Cleric and Druid Classes are +10% stronger than most other classes. The Mystic Theurge Prestige Class is +30% stronger than most other classes.

Any questions/comments?

I can certainly beleive that the cleric and druid, based on raw analysis of the numbers, are more powerful.

I think that you can't just run the numbers and come up with a final anwer; again, the role that the character plays in the game is an important determiner. Sure, the cleric can buff up and be as powerful as the fighter for the combat -- but in doing so, the cleric would jeopardize the party by compromising his role in resource replenishment.

But this consideration only goes so far. It's pretty hard to have as much power as a MT does at high levels (FWIW, MT seems fine at lower levels where the entry requirements are still telling) and not have it be sensible during gameplay.
 

bret

First Post
Upper_Krust said:


Any questions/comments?

This doesn't help much if you are giving fractional or full caster progression. It also doesn't rate one of the standard class features that Sorcerers and Wizards give up by going to a PrC: Familiars. Same can be said of clerics and turning undead.

It doesn't help decide if prerequisites are appropriate.

It doesn't take into account the level at which you gain an ability, something that several people both here and on Monte's board have noted as being important. Getting Energy Resistance/20 is a lot more useful at 6th level than 15th. At high levels, you can use a spell to grant immunity to an energy type. Spell is in Tome & Blood, I forgot the name of it.

Just out of curiousity, using your system how to you rate the LoreMaster vs. a standard Wizard?
 

Re: Re: How does one balance a PrC?

Hi Psion mate! :)

Psion said:
I can certainly beleive that the cleric and druid, based on raw analysis of the numbers, are more powerful.

Indeed, thats something I have heard from a number of people and is borne out by the above system.

Psion said:
I think that you can't just run the numbers and come up with a final anwer;

I think we can derive a credible answer from the facts.

Psion said:
again, the role that the character plays in the game is an important determiner. Sure, the cleric can buff up and be as powerful as the fighter for the combat -- but in doing so, the cleric would jeopardize the party by compromising his role in resource replenishment.

Agreed; which is why I rate generic capabilities, and not individual campaign or character specific nuances.

What we are looking for is generic balance rather than individual balance. Based on certain choices one Fighter might be 'better' than another but what we rate is the potential.

Psion said:
But this consideration only goes so far. It's pretty hard to have as much power as a MT does at high levels (FWIW, MT seems fine at lower levels where the entry requirements are still telling) and not have it be sensible during gameplay.

I don't see the Mystic Theurge prereqs doing anything to compensate for the incredible gulf between this Prestige Class and all the others I have seen.
 

Psion

Adventurer
Upper_Krust said:
I don't see the Mystic Theurge prereqs doing anything to compensate for the incredible gulf between this Prestige Class and all the others I have seen.

Would you think that a Cleric 4/Wizard 3 is as powerful as a Wizard 7 or a cleric 7? It's really not, because their magical abilities are parallel, not accumulative. So if you are simply adding their magic power together linearly, I assert that you are not getting a fair representation of their power.

MT tries to compensate for this defecit by doubling the spell power the MT gets at every level. But I think while you do start out at a power deficit, you work it off by 6th or 7th level; while it is fair to say that power from different class spellcasting lists don't stack directly, they also don't totally overlap either, and having access to two classes worth of spells is telling, even if it is at a lower level.
 

Hi bret! :)

I appreciate the feedback.

bret said:
This doesn't help much if you are giving fractional or full caster progression. It also doesn't rate one of the standard class features that Sorcerers and Wizards give up by going to a PrC: Familiars. Same can be said of clerics and turning undead.

I already explained that Class Features should be balanced in terms of Feats or Integrated Spell Levels.

I can't hope to rate every class feature in every supplement so I thought it better to try and explain how DMs can rate these things themselves.

bret said:
It doesn't help decide if prerequisites are appropriate.

Few prerequisites are

However, I am sure it would be easy to implement such a factor.

bret said:
It doesn't take into account the level at which you gain an ability, something that several people both here and on Monte's board have noted as being important. Getting Energy Resistance/20 is a lot more useful at 6th level than 15th. At high levels, you can use a spell to grant immunity to an energy type. Spell is in Tome & Blood, I forgot the name of it.

Well I didn't want to dump you all in at the deep end right away; but this is actually handled via my CR/EL system.

bret said:
Just out of curiousity, using your system how to you rate the LoreMaster vs. a standard Wizard?

They rate fairly closely. I will do a detailed outline of both after I get my dinner. ;)

Incidently I typed one of the above factors incorrectly.

A level of Integrated Sorceror/Wizard Spells should be +0.35 (above I put 0.375 by mistake). :eek:
 

Hello again mate! :)

Psion said:
Would you think that a Cleric 4/Wizard 3 is as powerful as a Wizard 7 or a cleric 7?

It's really not, because their magical abilities are parallel, not accumulative. So if you are simply adding their magic power together linearly, I assert that you are not getting a fair representation of their power.

I think what little decrease in terms of power would be countered by an increase in versatility.

That is one of the constants of multi-classing.

Psion said:
MT tries to compensate for this defecit by doubling the spell power the MT gets at every level. But I think while you do start out at a power deficit, you work it off by 6th or 7th level; while it is fair to say that power from different class spellcasting lists don't stack directly, they also don't totally overlap either, and having access to two classes worth of spells is telling, even if it is at a lower level.

I see the point you are trying to make but I don't think any perceived power deficit is overtly noticeable - and certainly not one that balances the mammoth increase in power afforded to the Mystic Theurge.
 

Psion

Adventurer
Upper_Krust said:
I think what little decrease in terms of power would be countered by an increase in versatility.

That is one of the constants of multi-classing.

So, you come from the Benjamin Durbin philosophy of multiclassing power? Let's just say that while I don't agree with you that the exchange rate between power and versatility from different casting classes is 1:1, I also don't agree with jasamcarl that it's 1:0. Both are extreme attitudes; the truth is somewhere in the middle.

I see the point you are trying to make but I don't think any perceived power deficit is overtly noticeable - and certainly not one that balances the mammoth increase in power afforded to the Mystic Theurge.

By 10th level MT, you are right.

Look at it this way. MT's power increase is large and uniform. I would vehemently disagree, for example, that a Clr3/Wiz3/MT1 is as powerful as a Wiz7, though you are certainly better off than a Clr3/Wiz4. But we agree that the per level power increase is rather large. So this gap closes and by 10th level, the power afforded the MT is excessive.
 

Voidrunner's Codex

Remove ads

Top