How Dragonbane Pointed out the Clashing Desires of My Gaming Group

[schneeland]

My issue with most of those is that I don't have the headspace to run weekly sessions of 4e, Rifts, and probably PF2 (maybe I can do it) - not with work, my master's program, and other things.

If that's the issue, why not run bi-weekly games?
I've not run weekly games since I left university. Not even with games I like a lot.

 

[UngainlyTitan]

The person I've spoken to the most about this is my wife. Her suggestions have been 4e, Pathfinder 2, Rifts for Savage Worlds, and 5e as a "good enough game - not her favorite but she'll do it."
My issue with most of those is that I don't have the headspace to run weekly sessions of 4e, Rifts, and probably PF2 (maybe I can do it) - not with work, my master's program, and other things. Plus, we've got 3 players - and I don't want to run an NPC to balance encounters for them in these strict, class-based games (even though that's less of an issue in Savage Worlds).
"Story player" didn't like 4e.
"Trad player" didn't like Savage Worlds.
Maybe the answer really is 5e - no one's favorite but a "good enough"?

First off, having read a lot of these threads by you I am not sure that you can get the experience you crave out of DMing rpgs with the average group, or at all, except with some exceptional groups. You are not going to get it with this group in particular so do not make the preparation investments you have been making. There is no need, and they will not notice the lack.
Do not run a big AP but pick from the adventure anthologies and run them like an episode of "Have gun, will travel" or the Bond movies.
The PCs are a bunch of trouble shooters (like the A-Team). They start off at the office, someone comes into the office and declares "There's trouble at mill" and off they go -> Lost Mines of Phandelver (or something else), Lather, rinse and repeat.
Run the adventures straight no tweaking except the boss fight or some fight that you spotted in your initial read through that could be made more interesting. Do not feel obliged to run every fight, the bad guys are allowed run away if their side is losing.
Take a break between each episode and prepare the next one before committing to running the next thing.
If the party loses the breadcrumb trail in any given episode follow the advice of (I believe) Dashiel Hammett "have somebody come through the window guns blazing with a clue in his back pocket".
In the meanwhile, look for the kind of game you would like as a player elsewhere and use the opportunity to explore other systems.

 

[payn]

The person I've spoken to the most about this is my wife. Her suggestions have been 4e, Pathfinder 2, Rifts for Savage Worlds, and 5e as a "good enough game - not her favorite but she'll do it."
My issue with most of those is that I don't have the headspace to run weekly sessions of 4e, Rifts, and probably PF2 (maybe I can do it) - not with work, my master's program, and other things. Plus, we've got 3 players - and I don't want to run an NPC to balance encounters for them in these strict, class-based games (even though that's less of an issue in Savage Worlds).
"Story player" didn't like 4e.
"Trad player" didn't like Savage Worlds.
Maybe the answer really is 5e - no one's favorite but a "good enough"?

There is a reason folks say 5E is everyone's second favourite edition.

 

[Aldarc]

Plus, we've got 3 players - and I don't want to run an NPC to balance encounters for them in these strict, class-based games (even though that's less of an issue in Savage Worlds).
"Story player" didn't like 4e.
"Trad player" didn't like Savage Worlds.
Maybe the answer really is 5e - no one's favorite but a "good enough"?

Again, I would suggest giving Fabula Ultima a closer look.

• The story player may find something to like in FU as the game does take influences from "story/narrative games" like Fate, Apocalypse World, and Sorcerer. But these are things that the other players can ignore.
• The Trad Player may find something to like in FU because there are quasi-classes, levels, etc. People here consider it pretty neo-trad as game, though this idea apparently makes the creator sad.
• Your "I want to kick butt and take names!" wife may find something to like in FU as the game takes influence from 4e D&D and 13th Age.

didn’t like tracking inventory

didn't like inventory slots

Inventory Points are a thing but it's not like encumbrance or tracking arrows: IP "are an abstract resource that characters can spend to create consumable items "on the spot", such as potions and antidotes."

didn't like rolling a survival check to camp in the wilderness

You don't roll for survival to camp in the wilderness, but you do need one of three things to Rest in the wilderness: a magic tent (cost 4 IP), friendly hospitality from someone in exchange for help/money, or a safe location where there is no risk for attack.

didn’t like not getting all their HP back every day

If you Rest in the wilderness or settlement, you recover all HP, MP, and recover from conditions.

didn't like card initiative

I have explained the new version of initiative that the creators uses that isn't in the book: named villains, PCs, and then nameless villains.

didn't like random character creation

didn’t like that they wouldn’t be getting levels (it’s a skill-based game, not class-based)

You build your character in Fabula Ultima. You choose your stats and class levels. PCs start at level 5, as they have to multiclass with 2-3 classes to create their starting character. You can't multiclass into more than three classes unless one of those has reached level 10. But reaching level 10 doesn't mean you get everything in that class, as there is a lot of pick and choose.

didn’t like that it used the metric system (even when I converted it to “squares” for them)

There are no measurements. Positioning doesn't really even matter. If you are getting into a fight, then it's assumed that all enemies, apart from flying ones are within reach each round.

complaints there was exploration

It's not a major focus of play and the GM can be as detailed or abstract as they want here.

I was asked “what made you think we’d actually like this game?”

The answer here if this comes up is because I led you astray.

thought their turns were boring ("all I did one round was roll to defend")

FU doesn't really have actions like in Dragonbane: i.e., defend, dodge, parry, attack, move, etc.

characters felt “puny”

You get starting HP from your Might die size times five plus your character level plus from taking certain classes (though not at each level). So you would still start with 35 HP (d6 x 5 + level 5) if you took no classes that provided additional HP. You can hit hard but so can your foes.

didn't like that boss monsters played by different rules

They may not like this in FU, but again FU follows video game logic. Bosses have limited resources that the GM can spend so that they live and fight another day or "power up."

complaints that there was roleplaying

It will be things like Traits and Bonds that the players can spend their fabula points on, but it generally operates like Fate points or Inspiration: typically used for a bonus or reroll.

didn’t like pushing their rolls and getting disadvantage conditions on future ability checks

You can't push your rolls in FU. That said, status effects in FU lower your relevant die size by one temporarily.

didn’t like that they couldn’t roll to tell when an NPC was hiding a secret (even when I basically just told them that was the case)

I guess you could make a regular check for that: maybe rolling Insight + Willpower. There are guidelines for when to call for a check. However, I don't really like lie detector checks or players using checks like pressing buttons to spin to win.

“I get bored when there’s not fighting. But you can let other people roleplay and explore.”

That may always be an issue if one player wants to roleplay but the other doesn't, and I don't think it's really something that the choice of game can solve.

There is a reason folks say 5E is everyone's second favourite edition.

In my case, it may be my third favorite edition, as both 4e D&D and B/X scratch different itches I have pretty well.

 

[Retreater]

Yeah, @Aldarc, FU is definitely in consideration. I just felt I needed more time to learn the system and prep something since I've had the books less than a month when I started preparing the Dragonbane game, so I marked FU as a "down the road option."

 

[John Dallman]

In PF2 just I’d just spec out a heal bot cleric whose function is healing and as a plot delivery system. Minimal mental overhead.

Or give the healbot to the player who likes role-playing as an additional character or henchman.

 

[Retreater]

We have our weekly session tonight, which is going to start with a conversation. I need to plan my points.
I'd like to start with "this is what I liked about Dragonbane and why I picked it." I want to address "why did you even think we'd like this?"
If they can see what I like about it and want to give it a second chance tonight, we'll do that. If not, maybe we'll see what to do next.

 

[Retreater]

If that's the issue, why not run bi-weekly games?
I've not run weekly games since I left university. Not even with games I like a lot.

I run games Sunday nights, which are apparently appreciated by players before they start a week of work. In the past, it's also been sometime I looked forward to. (It is a tradition going back to other groups going back to when I was in college.)
If not RPGs, maybe I can alternate one week boardgame, one RPG. We'll see what they want to do.

 

[schneeland]

I run games Sunday nights, which are apparently appreciated by players before they start a week of work. In the past, it's also been sometime I looked forward to. (It is a tradition going back to other groups going back to when I was in college.)
If not RPGs, maybe I can alternate one week boardgame, one RPG. We'll see what they want to do.

Sounds like a plan!
I definitely get the appeal of a fixed game night (though I personally prefer Sunday to be more quiet), but maybe alternating between board games (or any other group activity) and roleplaying games will give you the necessary breathing room for prep - and hopefully also allows you to enjoy the game more again yourself (because IMO the GM should definitely be able to have a good time, too).

 

[BookTenTiger]

We have our weekly session tonight, which is going to start with a conversation. I need to plan my points.
I'd like to start with "this is what I liked about Dragonbane and why I picked it." I want to address "why did you even think we'd like this?"
If they can see what I like about it and want to give it a second chance tonight, we'll do that. If not, maybe we'll see what to do next.

I think you should start with "I'm not having fun. I think everyone at the table should have fun. What can we do to make this fun for everyone?"

Without that conversation, no system is going to solve your group's problems.