How Dragonbane Pointed out the Clashing Desires of My Gaming Group

[AnotherGuy]

I recommend boardgames like @billd91 and then start building a new RPG group with that 1 player. There is no other solution with those group of "players"

 

[aramis erak]

I recommend boardgames like @billd91 and then start building a new RPG group with that 1 player. There is no other solution with those group of "players"

There's no good reason for scare quotes on players...
There are a variety of ways to play; it is a mismatch of styles. They are very much players; just not players wanting the same style as their GM.
It's safe to say @Retreater wants a mix of action, story, and social, and for them to engage with the rules and setting. And to do so with rules that don't drive him batty.
What his players want appears to be "beer and pretzels" hack-fest.

That doesn't make any of them any less gamers nor players.
Just mismatched to each other.

After all, sometimes a press your luck dungeon penetration game is just what the shrink ordered... In my case, literally. (Tho' it was a few decades ago.)

Hell, it's fine for a gamer couple to play in different groups. My wife does... I seldom get to play.

 

[mAcular]

Honestly it sounds like they just want 5e with a combat fest. Why not that? You don't want it to be TOO tactical so that rules out PF and 3/3.5, so that leaves 5e.

Hell D&D 2024 is even closer to what they want now.

I wouldn't listen to the BS list of perfect game qualities, all of that is wishful thinking and trying to fool themselves. Go with what you see them responding to.

 

[SJB]

I've been curious about T&T for a while, but have never had luck finding it.
If I do get it, I'll try selling it to my group by saying, "It's TNT, it's ... dynomite."

The name was sold by Ken St André. It now exists as Monsters! Monsters!

 

[R_J_K75]

It's like every time I have a good idea, they shoot it down.

This tells me your group, or at least a majority of it, doesn't seem to want to compromise. So if I were you, I'd have to ask myself, is it worth the aggravation?

My current group is kind of in a similar situation. We have been trying out a few systems over the last year or two after we decided that 5E just isn't for us. Most times, they don't want to put in the time to learn the game but then blame the system. We're still trying to find a balance between rules lite vs. too lite, I don't think there is a one size fits all and we're still trying to figure out what everyone wants. Maybe we'll get there, maybe we won't, time will tell.

You should probably take a break and regroup later.

This is my opinion too. Our current group since we started playing together in 2018, have taken breaks from time to time for various reasons. There was some player turn over, but, when we eventually regrouped there was always the same few players that returned. This might be a good option for you and your group. I wouldn't worry about the group breaking up, you might lose a player or two, but in the long run might end up with a more stable group. As I recall saying in another thread, new players will come eventually and usually when you're not even looking for them. Even when I stopped playing RPGs for a few years I was always able to find new players eventually. Sometimes if you're trying too hard to make things work, a break helps.

 

[aramis erak]

The name was sold by Ken St André. It now exists as Monsters! Monsters!

Rebellion has left T&T 1e, 4e, 5e, and deluxe up for sale, ken's got M!M! 2e (as 1e) and 2.7 up, as well as Humans! Humans! - a supplement to M!M! with a different approach to Humans, Elves, and Dwarves from T&T, yet compatible enough.

 

[jdrakeh]

The name was sold by Ken St André. It now exists as Monsters! Monsters!

Kind of. I believe that T&T (the system and all of the related IP with that brand that Flying Buffalo owned) was sold to Rebellion. Monsters! Monsters! is an off-shoot game that was first published in 1976 and is based on T&T (and, yes, Ken is currently publishing a new edition of that game).

 

[TheSword]

@Retreater why not render under Ceasar what belongs to Ceasar, and render unto god what belongs to god.

Do the zany, power game of murder hobos for your family and neighbors that they want. It’s great that they want to also enjoy the hobby that you’re interested in. I can’t get my partner to play at all and it can create a tension when it’s something you enjoy so much. In many respects you’re blessed that they want to. So lean into that and get enjoyment from creating something they will enjoy rather than something other gamers make you think they should want.

But also join a weekly or fortnightly online game that you play in for some more serious gaming. Something just for you that will fit perfectly the kinds of games you enjoy. Start off as a player at least. You can pick the game up and put it down and the time investment will be minimal. Online to broaden the net and to create a clear distinction with your F2F group so they don’t get offended that they aren’t involved. You’re clearly invested in TTRPGs I’m sure you’d be an asset to any group.

 

[dbm]

A few different suggestions for you, @Retreater, coming from different directions.

The main thing I would suggest is trying to split your time into combat stuff with the full group, and maybe 1-on-1 focussed role-playing just with the person who wants that style of game. That will hopefully mean you don’t have to exclude your wife from all your gaming and you can get some gaming in that better meets your wants.

What do do with that combat focussed group? Another couple of suggestions here.

First is the board game Sword & Sorcery. It doesn’t get a lot of chatter but it is our favourite dungeon crawl board game. It’s a fully coop game and the monster AI is really good, with monsters acting differently and in theme with their attack set (e.g. monsters with a ranged attack will step back of the PCs get a bit too close). There are multiple sets with different campaigns and a single mission will occupy a typical evening of gaming. I would suggest initially playing this with your wife as hopefully she is easier to persuade than the full group, then if she enjoys it the two of you can persuade the rest of the group.

My second suggestion would be The Fantasy Trip, which is the predecessor to GURPS and focussed on fantasy. The game is really quite tactical based on hex maps with position and manoeuvre being important to combat success. One of the associated things with TFT is that it started as two mini games (Melee and Wizard) which were combat arena tactical board games. So maybe you could arrange some arena fight style engagements to play with the combat focussed group to scratch that itch in an away that is more easy to set up and run.

If you can keep the bigger group happy with either of those low / no-prep options then that would free up head-space to do some 1-on-1 RP with your other player. Over time, maybe your wife would become interested in playing that too since her combat fix is being serviced by TFT / S&S.

 

[GothmogIV]

I’ve long struggled trying to find the “perfect” system for my group, as evidenced in my Post-Mortems about various 5E campaigns, Savage Worlds Holler, the recent 8-month campaign in 4E, and a series of indie one-shots including Dread, Monster of the Week, and Alice is Missing. Finally, I decided that there isn't a "perfect" system - but that we should switch it up to appeal to everyone in the group, players and GM alike.

The 5E and 4E games were especially taxing on me. Finally, I was asked “what would you like to run?” I created a spreadsheet of all my available systems to try to maximize what I wanted, which would be a departure from the very tactical experience of 4E, which would allow me and the player who had felt a little neglected on the story/roleplaying/exploration fronts, which still wouldn’t be as deadly as many OSR systems, which still had some character customization, thrilling battles, still in print, etc.

After pondering this for over a month, I picked Dragonbane, which was a system I’d played a handful of times. I thought it would be good for myself and the one player who likes the story/roleplaying/exploration angle, and the other players who like more of a “beer and pretzels” style game. I created a campaign notebook to detail the characters, their motivations. Took notes about the NPCs and the quests. This was going to be my first campaign in years that would “matter.”

In our first session we had a dangerous fight, some wilderness survival, roleplaying in the town, meeting NPCs, shopping, picking up quests, etc. It was a very typical fantasy RPG session for a first session of a campaign. After the conclusion, I asked the players how they thought it went, and here are some of the responses…

• didn’t like tracking inventory
• didn't like rolling a survival check to camp in the wilderness
• thought their turns were boring ("all I did one round was roll to defend")
• characters felt “puny”
• didn't like that boss monsters played by different rules
• didn't like random character creation
• didn't like inventory slots
• complaints that there was roleplaying
• complaints there was exploration
• didn't like card initiative
• didn’t like that it used the metric system (even when I converted it to “squares” for them)
• didn’t like not getting all their HP back every day
• didn’t like pushing their rolls and getting disadvantage conditions on future ability checks
• didn’t like that they couldn’t roll to tell when an NPC was hiding a secret (even when I basically just told them that was the case)
• didn’t like that they wouldn’t be getting levels (it’s a skill-based game, not class-based)
• “I get bored when there’s not fighting. But you can let other people roleplay and explore.”
• I was asked “what made you think we’d actually like this game?”

So, I have one player and myself who prefer this style of gaming and two other players who honestly should be playing Gloomhaven. However, the “Gloomhaven” group consists of my wife – whom I obviously can’t kick out of the group – and my neighbor who brought the more story-driven player to the group and probably wouldn’t want to be uninvited.

Just to distill what they want…

• No real roleplaying stakes or exploration
• Interesting tactical combat that isn’t actually threatening
• Full HP and power recharge between battles
• Can’t be a miniatures wargame because it needs to be fought in squares – not measuring tape (my wife’s specification)
• Handwave all tracking of resources, including rations, torches, arrows, etc.

Anyways, when I post about being in a bad mood about gaming on here, this is why. Just the utter crushing feeling of running games for people who hate my concept of RPGs and don’t even appreciate when I suffer for months to run the games they prefer (like the 8-month 4E campaign). They won’t run them – and even if they did – I wouldn’t want to play them.

Tell someone else to DM for a while.