D&D General How has D&D changed over the decades?

[Paul Farquhar]

Well yeah, I know, that was kind of my point. I was taken aback by it.

That a rule exists does not mean it is applied.

One thing that seems to have changed since I first started playing is there are a lot more people who read the rules.

 

[MGibster]

I think for some people, the death funnel is the training. They want to play out the training, so the characters have to start out sad.

This seems odd though. I had always assumed my 1st level Fighter/Magic User/Thief/Whatever had some training prior to the start of the game. How else did my Fighter learn how to use all those weapons if not through training? How did my Magic User learn what few spells he knew if not through training? If you wanted to play through that training you made a level 0 character which was by no means the default gaming experience.

 

[Remathilis]

Dungeon Crawl Classics 0-level funnels answer all these questions. How were you trained? What were you before? What’s your backstory? Why are you adventuring? Why is the group together? Etc.

They’re fantastic ways to kickstart gameplay and just get on with things. Instead of some boring, dry, and tedious Mary Sue piece of fiction foisted on the DM, the players actually play through their first meeting, their first adventure, their first combat. We did this together.

They’re also a lot more fun than reading generic tragic backstory #75 about how your totally not a Batman clone Rogue/Fighter/Bard/Warlock gained all their amazing powers…yet magically only has zero XP. Ugh. Gimme a dozen peasants storming a castle any day.

Ah yes, the joys of funnels. Characters with names like "Bob the Rogue" 'Elf #4" and "____".
Whose backstories are "was conveniently tied up in the next room" or "showed up minutes after his brother died and joined to avenge his death" who tell legendary stories of being one-shotted in the first round by a kobold, dying to a poison needled because they only have a 1/5 chance to find it, or finding out your only spell memorized, charm person, is useless against the ogre who just tpk'd your party.

I think DCC hits on the nature of that style well: it's a deathmatch style game that requires you don't take it seriously until you get lucky enough to have a PC live to get a few levels. DCC takes it to an absurd endpoint. It's fun, but much like I don't hop on PUBG for in-depth storytelling in the vein of Final Fantasy or Elder Scrolls, I don't look at DCC for anything more than having a good time tossing 0 levels into a dungeon and laughing over beers when they triumph or die or both.

But a long running campaign where my PC was the luckiest of the seven elves I rolled up to beat the first dungeon? Probably not.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Reading and comprehending nuance are different things.

Sure, a fighter gets proficiency with every weapon and armor in the game because he's a special person and his mother was a special person and as a child taught him everything he needed to learn the basics of every weapon. He has a natural talent with weapons that Bob the militia man does not.

The wizard learned all those spells because she was bit by a magic spider that gave her dreams and understanding.

The rogue has expertise because her father was 1/4 kinder!

Do you get it yet? The 5E rules don't say how a starting character got it's abilities. Maybe training, maybe a blessing by a god, maybe from years of experience, maybe anything. It's up to each player to decide how/why their character is special/knows what it knows.

You said it yourself, "used to". 5E doesn't have any of that, therefore it's not applicable to 5E RAW. 5E doesn't say anywhere that gaining proficiencies at level 1 takes any time at all. You keep melding things from past editions into the 5th edition. That's fine at your table, but that is not RAW or RAI.

Wrong. In 5E for level 1 abilities there is no such thing. Prove me wrong with a quote from an official 5E source, not what the 3E or 2E, or some 3PP product says. You won't find it in 5E.


PCs are special. They are the rare, the unusual. It's why NPCs are not built (RAW) with PC classes. It's why sidekicks don't have abilities comparable to PCs at the same level.

NPCs are not built like PCs for ease of use, and no other reason. Even the recent changes to monster statblocks are for ease of use.

 

[Vaalingrade]

Dungeon Crawl Classics 0-level funnels answer all these questions. How were you trained? What were you before? What’s your backstory? Why are you adventuring? Why is the group together? Etc.

They’re fantastic ways to kickstart gameplay and just get on with things. Instead of some boring, dry, and tedious Mary Sue piece of fiction foisted on the DM, the players actually play through their first meeting, their first adventure, their first combat. We did this together.

They’re also a lot more fun than reading generic tragic backstory #75 about how your totally not a Batman clone Rogue/Fighter/Bard/Warlock gained all their amazing powers…yet magically only has zero XP. Ugh. Gimme a dozen peasants storming a castle any day.

They're only fantastic if that's something you want to bother with in play. Some people just want to play their character without this weird proofing process that is just going to keep you from playing the character you want to play a significant amount of the time and inducing apathy toward the characters actually passing because they'll still just probably die. Which is and odd tool for people touting to be encouraging roleplay.

 

[Micah Sweet]

A prediction I have for 5.5e or 6e with the history of 3.5 NPC classes and 5e Sidekick classes and the overall changes in the mindset of D&D is the formal introduction of non-adventurer classes of multiple tiers.

Classes you can either give NPC henchmen followers, use to boost monsters, or to extend low level play.

Like there could be an official Commoner class, Smith class, and Aristocrat class. Then you trade Commoner levels for Warrior/Expert/Priest/Mage/Magewright levels at 2 to 1. Then you can trade Warrior levels for Barbarian/Fighter/Paladin/Monk levels 2 to 1.

This would like you play "low level" for 12-20 levels.

Non-adventuring classes aren't fun for PCs, and only matter for worldbuilding. WotC doesn't care to put effort into stuff like that anymore.

 

[overgeeked]

Ah yes, the joys of funnels. Characters with names like "Bob the Rogue" 'Elf #4" and "____".
Whose backstories are "was conveniently tied up in the next room" or "showed up minutes after his brother died and joined to avenge his death" who tell legendary stories of being one-shotted in the first round by a kobold, dying to a poison needled because they only have a 1/5 chance to find it, or finding out your only spell memorized, charm person, is useless against the ogre who just tpk'd your party.

Thank you for making it clear you’ve no idea what the DCC 0-level funnel actually is or how DCC is played.

I think DCC hits on the nature of that style well: it's a deathmatch style game that requires you don't take it seriously until you get lucky enough to have a PC live to get a few levels. DCC takes it to an absurd endpoint. It's fun, but much like I don't hop on PUBG for in-depth storytelling in the vein of Final Fantasy or Elder Scrolls, I don't look at DCC for anything more than having a good time tossing 0 levels into a dungeon and laughing over beers when they triumph or die or both.

Any RPG can have as in-depth storytelling as you want. DCC happens to take the time to pop that “my characters is so awesome and special and amazing” bubble when the 0-level funnel is used.

But a long running campaign where my PC was the luckiest of the seven elves I rolled up to beat the first dungeon? Probably not.

Your loss.

 

[Vaalingrade]

What about the people who want to play awesome, special and amazing characters instead of... whatever it is you want people to be forced to play?

 

[Ralif Redhammer]

Sorry, the bit about backstories was unrelated to the anime part of the discussion. I'm not even sure what an anime backstory would look like!

I am not saying anime backstores are in D&D but anime aesthetic and combat.

Many new fans don't see their fighters like a former baker in off the rack plate armor anymore..

Same. Currently running a DCC RPG campaign alongside my 5e one. I actually prefer DCC Lankhmar's Meet to the Funnel. There's something freeing about the Funnel and those poor hapless 0-level characters, though.

I like DCC too ;-)

 

[overgeeked]

Sorry, the bit about backstories was unrelated to the anime part of the discussion. I'm not even sure what an anime backstory would look like!

About the same as most modern D&D backstories. Tragic death of everything and everyone the character ever loved and they single-handedly sought revenge. Murdering their way through blah blah blah. But somehow still only have 0 XP.