D&D (2024) How Important Is The Lore

[Reynard]

No, that tells nothing. You have equally described Galadirel and Hermey the Dentist. The Core books should not read like the SRD. I will vehemently reject boiling lore down into vague nothingness.

And I think that is the only way to go for a game where the GM and players are meant to create their own worlds.

 

[Remathilis]

And I think that is the only way to go for a game where the GM and players are meant to create their own worlds.

But you need a foundation to build off of. That isn't a foundation. It's giving somebody a 2x4 and telling them to build something with it. What do elves look like? How long do they live? Where do they live? What gives them such good eyesight? Why is that the defining trait of an elf? In lieu of actual info, I'm sure an enterprising DM will decide elves are 40 feet tall and eat road tar for nourishment, but most DMs will need some better guidance than that.

Believe me, if 13 year old Remathilis saw that, he'd probably have put the book back on the shelf and bought another video game ..

 

[Bae'zel]

This is about right.
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HA I was just reading Shadowdark and admiring the conciseness of the Species / Races section in that book.

Devil's advocate: that book is relying on many decades of established tropes and media, so it can afford to be brief.

 

[Reynard]

What do elves look like?

They are ethereal.

How long do they live?

A long time.

Where do they live?

That's a good question for you to answer in your world building.

What gives them such good eyesight?

Why is this a question at all?

Why is that the defining trait of an elf?

Again, good worldbuilding question.

Believe me, if 13 year old Remathilis saw that, he'd probably have put the book back on the shelf and bought another video game ..

10 year old Reynard did not live under a rock, so when he learned about elves in Basic, he was able to draw from cartoons, Tolkien, comics and fairy stories and Christmas. Nobody is learning about elves for the first time from D&D.

 

[Blue]

Lore is actively harmful in a core book. It cannot be correct for all settings, and therefore is misleading.

"Sorry, my halflings are dino-riding outback tribesmen, all that lore about civilized homebody community agrarians who have a lot of meals is just wrong."

Lore belongs with settings. And those settings can have additional rules to support the settings. But core books shouldn't have lore. Or if they do, clearly mark it in every single case with the setting it is associated with, presented clearly as an example and not as a generic descriptor.

I am answering this in the context of being asked about the 2024 core books in a D&D forum, considering D&D is a big tent game with dozens of official and 3pp worlds plus encouragement for homebrew. For single/primary setting RPGs like Blades in the Dark that's a different story.

 

[Remathilis]

HA I was just reading Shadowdark and admiring the conciseness of the Species / Races section in that book.

Devil's advocate: that book is relying on many decades of established tropes and media, so it can afford to be brief.

Much of other TTRPG design is recursive, it assumes you know about D&D tropes because you were exposed to them previously, so they don't need to explain how elves are man-sized, human-looking and have pointy ears. If you've gotten as far as finding Shadowdark, you know what an elf is and don't need them explaining it again.

But D&D (and even Pathfinder) need to lay the foundation for so much of the fantasy gaming lingua franca. They have to explain what an elf is so that you don't think it's Will Ferrell in a Christmas costume.

I think we, as experienced and old players, forget how much of our understanding of the game came from those lore dumps of old and to remove that lore in favor of brevity is to rob players and GMs of that foundation and exposure.

 

[Bae'zel]

Much of other TTRPG design is recursive, it assumes you know about D&D tropes because you were exposed to them previously, so they don't need to explain how elves are man-sized, human-looking and have pointy ears. If you've gotten as far as finding Shadowdark, you know what an elf is and don't need them explaining it again.

But D&D (and even Pathfinder) need to lay the foundation for so much of the fantasy gaming lingua franca. They have to explain what an elf is so that you don't think it's Will Ferrell in a Christmas costume.

I think we, as experienced and old players, forget how much of our understanding of the game came from those lore dumps of old and to remove that lore in favor of brevity is to rob players and GMs of that foundation and exposure.

Yeah it definitely depends on audience.

More public-facing games like D&D need SOME lore to help orient and onboard newcomers to the hobby.

Niche games like Shadowdark and Old School Essentials may be for a different audience who are already familiar with these things? Perhaps?

I'm pretty sure that new games that are entirely original, and not leaning heavily on established Tolkien'esque fantasy would definitely need them.

I just got the Runequest boxed set, and you can bet that I need that lore to understand what the hell is going on, and why all of the women in that one culture wear fake beards as jewelry.

 

[Remathilis]

They are ethereal.

So they are ghosts? White translucent beings made of ectoplasm? Ethereal tells me nothing.

A long time..

100 years? 1000? A million? Immortal? Maybe they ARE ghosts

That's a good question for you to answer in your world building.

Yeah, but you're not giving me anything to build off of. Say elves live in forests and I will create a forest for them to live in. [emoji1745] And I'll just assume they live no where.

Why is this a question at all?.

Why is that the only thing that defines an elf? Yes I get elf senses are described as keen, but it's certainly not the first thing I would think of. You'd think they were flightless hawks!

Again, good worldbuilding question.

Ok. Elves are the ghosts of hawk-headed humans. Did I elf right?

10 year old Reynard did not live under a rock, so when he learned about elves in Basic, he was able to draw from cartoons, Tolkien, comics and fairy stories and Christmas. Nobody is learning about elves for the first time from D&D.

But they learn contradictory things and are told to figure it out. When I played Basic, I didn't know dwarves had beards. Dwarves to me were circus performers. My idea of fantasy was Final Fantasy, not Tokiien. Elves are creepy fey creatures there, not ethereal, long lived beings like in Middle Earth. This elf would have told me nothing.

You know what a D&D-inspired elf is supposed to be. You can, consciously or unconsciously, fill in the gaps. You will get to Legolas because you know that's supposed to be the archetype. Not everyone will.

 

[Reynard]

Yeah it definitely depends on audience.

More public-facing games like D&D need SOME lore to help orient and onboard newcomers to the hobby.

Niche games like Shadowdark and Old School Essentials may be for a different audience who are already familiar with these things? Perhaps?

I'm pretty sure that new games that are entirely original, and not leaning heavily on established Tolkien'esque fantasy would definitely need them.

I just got the Runequest boxed set, and you can bet that I need that lore to understand what the hell is going on, and why all of the women in that one culture wear fake beards as jewelry.

I think it is worth recognizing the difference between description and lore.

Description is: Elves are tall humanoids bearing an ethereal beauty (to human eyes, at least). They are exceedingly long lived and therefore view the world from a somewhat alien mindset. Their communities are found in wild, remote places of great natural beauty, but individual elves often visit the lands of other peoples.

Lore: The Children of Correllion are stewards of the forests and oppose evil, especially orcs. They were the ones who taught magic to humankind. Dwarves and elves are at odds over a centuries long feud between their gods.

 

[Reynard]

So they are ghosts? White translucent beings made of ectoplasm? Ethereal tells me nothing.



100 years? 1000? A million? Immortal? Maybe they ARE ghosts



Yeah, but you're not giving me anything to build off of. Say elves live in forests and I will create a forest for them to live in. [emoji1745] And I'll just assume they live no where.



Why is that the only thing that defines an elf? Yes I get elf senses are described as keen, but it's certainly not the first thing I would think of. You'd think they were flightless hawks!



Ok. Elves are the ghosts of hawk-headed humans. Did I elf right?



But they learn contradictory things and are told to figure it out. When I played Basic, I didn't know dwarves had beards. Dwarves to me were circus performers. My idea of fantasy was Final Fantasy, not Tokiien. Elves are creepy fey creatures there, not ethereal, long lived beings like in Middle Earth. This elf would have told me nothing.

You know what a D&D-inspired elf is supposed to be. You can, consciously or unconsciously, fill in the gaps. You will get to Legolas because you know that's supposed to be the archetype. Not everyone will.

You can be as contrarian as you want. My point is that you don't need LORE to establish what elves ARE.