How is FR changing with 4E?

[Rechan]

Just out of curiosity, what was TSR's reasoning for the Time of Troubles, again?

You know, since we're all attributing motives to WotC.

 

[Deverash]

Yes, it makes tons of sense for the god of justice to completely buy unquestionably what the lord of lies says.

Of course, if no one believes the god of lies...can you really say he's the god of lies?

 

[Uzzy]

Regarding the Tyr thing, what's far more bizarre are the actions of the Brightwater Goddesses in regards to it. Sune, the Goddess of Love, agrees to set up an arranged, loveless marriage. She picks Tymora, the Goddess of Luck and one of the most flighty goddesses in the pantheon to get married, and Tymora goes along with it! What's worse is that the whole thing is arranged because a demigoddess, Siamorphe, Goddess of Nobility, joins with the Brightwater Goddesses, which some how unbalances things.

Goes against everything that's ever been shown about those goddesses.

Anyway...

That's true, but in the same regard it was easier to find said NPCs and convince them aid the party. There was nothing holding the NPCs back from just being convinced to do the job for the party. Make a few bluff or diplomacy checks and bang you have a major NPC aiding or doing your job for you.

Not unless the DM does that surprising thing and reads the Campaign Setting Book, which gives two important pieces of advice. Firstly, there are a couple of paragraphs on making the PC's the stars, which say that you shouldn't have those powerful NPC's around doing everything for the players. Secondly, there is the sidebar 'Concerns of the Mighty', which give seven very good reasons as to why powerful NPC's don't get involved with little problems.

It's a matter of where to draw the line between "I'm playing FR, but changing some things" and "I'm home-brewing and pulling some FR concepts". I'm not a Realms player, so I'll use Greyhawk. Even then, I only consider myself a casual fan.

Oh, I get that concern. If I were to change large aspects of my home campaign, I'd either discuss it with the players, or at the very least let them know about them. That's just an issue of communication.

 

[Scribble]

The FR gods have always kind of reminded me of the Greek Gods... All of them have lofty titles and such, but act in their stories like pety rich teenagers with too much free time.

 

[Kobold Avenger]

Yes, it makes tons of sense for the god of justice to completely buy unquestionably what the lord of lies says.

Even though I'm against stats for Gods, but I think a God of Lies would have an unquestionably high bluff skill. Probably more than the Insight skill of a God of Justice, since he isn't exactly a God of Truth.

 

[Hussar]

I always had a hard time understanding this type argument.

By the logic used above, FR GM's have been forced to learn and use all the gods in their games, and according to some claims I've read, all the FR lore that has been published as well. And that this mandatory content is keeping players away.

A GM has control over where his campaign is based and what races, classes, gods and storylines are included in his game. This is a core paradigm of any campaign. Basic table-top gaming 101. So given that, I really don't understand how a large amount of optional Gods, NPC's and history that is already in the GM's hands to keep or toss, is such a problem that it requires deleting that very same content.

Dedekind, I know you were only referring to the number of deities in FR. I added the additional examples about lore and overall content as the same logic you brought up is also being used by some 4E-FR fans as the reason why FR content needed to be pruned.

It just doesn't make sense to me.

The point of the Realms change isn't to appease home gamers. It's to work with the Living Realms RPGA games. To play Living Realms, you no longer have players who've been playing for twenty years, own every FR novel ever written, widdling all over the Triad's latest adventure because it doesn't follow canon established in a book that's been out of print for fifteen years.

 

[Fedifensor]

Even though I'm against stats for Gods, but I think a God of Lies would have an unquestionably high bluff skill. Probably more than the Insight skill of a God of Justice, since he isn't exactly a God of Truth.

Yeah, because he had so much time to practice that bluff skills as a mortal...

All told, Cyric's been around less than a hundred years, as opposed to the eternity that Tyr has existed. Granted, the whole idea that Ao would give this minor-league plotter the powers of a greater god was silly to begin with, but FR has been stuck with him since the Time of Troubles (2nd Edition era).

 

[Hussar]

Hang on a second here. Do I have this story straight?

The god of lies schemes and plots and tricks Tyr into believing that Helm is cuckolding him.

And people have a problem with this? Come on. This is bread and butter of just about every pantheistic tradition out there. Good grief. If it's good enough for pretty much every religion that ever existed, I think it's good enough for D&D.

 

[Rechan]

And people have a problem with this?

Forgotten Realms: Serious Business.

 

[Drakhar]

Yeah, because he had so much time to practice that bluff skills as a mortal...

All told, Cyric's been around less than a hundred years, as opposed to the eternity that Tyr has existed. Granted, the whole idea that Ao would give this minor-league plotter the powers of a greater god was silly to begin with, but FR has been stuck with him since the Time of Troubles (2nd Edition era).

But see here's the thing. Cyric WAS a mortal. Tyr has always been a god. Gods don't think the same way mortals do, so it is completely believeable that a god would fall for the tricks of a mortal turned god, simply because he doesn't have the same capacity to get his mind to think like Cyrics.