I tend to agree. For example, making an Nth level character equal to N 1st level ones would work for me. A 20th level one would be hard pressed against even two 10th level ones.
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How Many 1st Level Fighters Should a 10th Level Fighter Beat?
- Thread starter Hassassin
- Start date
I tend to agree. For example, making an Nth level character equal to N 1st level ones would work for me. A 20th level one would be hard pressed against even two 10th level ones.
keterys
First Post
I've been thinking a lot on this for some home rpg stuff, so... here's my theory:
For levels 1-10, I'd like total level to be equivalent. So, if you have 1 10th, a group of 10 1sts is on par. A group of 4 3rds is equal to 2 6ths, etc.
I'd then like every additional tier of 10 to double things.
So, an 11th is actually equivalent to 2 10ths, while 4 12s are on par with 3 16s.
That lets you go ahead and have the sorta wacko side of the game exist, but it's very clear where the jump offs occur, and it's not happening to only some parts of the system.
Ie, in many editions of D&D the system jumps at particular levels as you suddenly acquire a new level of spell, extra attacks, access to certain magic items, etc. I'd rather things were pretty gradual then everyone got their awesome thing all at once.
For levels 1-10, I'd like total level to be equivalent. So, if you have 1 10th, a group of 10 1sts is on par. A group of 4 3rds is equal to 2 6ths, etc.
I'd then like every additional tier of 10 to double things.
So, an 11th is actually equivalent to 2 10ths, while 4 12s are on par with 3 16s.
That lets you go ahead and have the sorta wacko side of the game exist, but it's very clear where the jump offs occur, and it's not happening to only some parts of the system.
Ie, in many editions of D&D the system jumps at particular levels as you suddenly acquire a new level of spell, extra attacks, access to certain magic items, etc. I'd rather things were pretty gradual then everyone got their awesome thing all at once.
Either one of those numbers is wrong or I'm not getting the math.
nightwalker450
First Post
Let me play the math game here, this is more backwards in setting some preferences for combat first, and then going from there.. So how many 1st level people can a 10th level person take in this idea of a system (4e similar)
Let's say that level and abilities are the main separators (both have the same equipment ie Enhancement bonuses to attack do not exist!)
Attacks
1 always misses, 20 always hits (ignore crit multipliers/bonuses)
Lets go with a system that averages a 60% hit rate on equal level.
I prefer bonus every other level, since it keeps things from escalating. So being 9 levels higher results in a 40% increased chance to hit, and a 40% decrease in being hit (+4 atk, +4 defenses over lower, 8 point difference)
So the higher level person has a 95% chance to hit (don't roll a 1), the lower level person has a 20% chance to hit. So for every hit I get on him, he'll have to swing ~5 times.
Hit Points/Damage
Hit points, I'm a fan of front loaded hit points to prevent easy one hit kills on low level players. So if our hit points per level are x.. then 5x at first level, and 14x at 10th. So 3 level 1's have an equivalent number of hit points approximately. Let's say three swings should be enough to kill an equal level person. So level 10 deals 4.7x damage, and level 1 deals 1.7x damage...
So a level 1 needs to hit the level 10 person 8.24 times, the level 10 needs to hit a level 1 once.
What do the numbers mean!
Unfortunately abilities are in the air, at this point I'm assuming the level 10 hasn't gone out of his way to get the above numbers...
42 levels 1's have a chance of bringing him down in the first round. So how many can he drop before they get their 42 swings... About 9 (they're dying off 1 per round, so their damage drops each round). This is playing that he takes a swing, and all his living opponents take a swing.
So if he gets multiple attacks, or has some cleave method, or even abilities to negate attacks, or heal/shrug off their damage he's further above that. So let's say ability wise, he's twice what they are..
My vote is 20 (ok I'll vote 30)!
Let's say that level and abilities are the main separators (both have the same equipment ie Enhancement bonuses to attack do not exist!)
Attacks
1 always misses, 20 always hits (ignore crit multipliers/bonuses)
Lets go with a system that averages a 60% hit rate on equal level.
I prefer bonus every other level, since it keeps things from escalating. So being 9 levels higher results in a 40% increased chance to hit, and a 40% decrease in being hit (+4 atk, +4 defenses over lower, 8 point difference)
So the higher level person has a 95% chance to hit (don't roll a 1), the lower level person has a 20% chance to hit. So for every hit I get on him, he'll have to swing ~5 times.
Hit Points/Damage
Hit points, I'm a fan of front loaded hit points to prevent easy one hit kills on low level players. So if our hit points per level are x.. then 5x at first level, and 14x at 10th. So 3 level 1's have an equivalent number of hit points approximately. Let's say three swings should be enough to kill an equal level person. So level 10 deals 4.7x damage, and level 1 deals 1.7x damage...
So a level 1 needs to hit the level 10 person 8.24 times, the level 10 needs to hit a level 1 once.
What do the numbers mean!
Unfortunately abilities are in the air, at this point I'm assuming the level 10 hasn't gone out of his way to get the above numbers...
42 levels 1's have a chance of bringing him down in the first round. So how many can he drop before they get their 42 swings... About 9 (they're dying off 1 per round, so their damage drops each round). This is playing that he takes a swing, and all his living opponents take a swing.
So if he gets multiple attacks, or has some cleave method, or even abilities to negate attacks, or heal/shrug off their damage he's further above that. So let's say ability wise, he's twice what they are..
My vote is 20 (ok I'll vote 30)!
Tehnai
First Post
I say 512.
You need 2 first level characters to beat 1 second level character.
You need 2 second level characters to beat 1 third level character.
You need 2 third level characters to beat 1 fourth level character.
You need 2 fourth level characters to beat 1 fifth level character.
and so on.
Thus, 512.
You need 2 first level characters to beat 1 second level character.
You need 2 second level characters to beat 1 third level character.
You need 2 third level characters to beat 1 fourth level character.
You need 2 fourth level characters to beat 1 fifth level character.
and so on.
Thus, 512.
keterys
First Post
Yeah, but only slightly off. If X is your basic unit of fighting power...
Heroic (L1-L10)
1 = 1X
2 = 2X
3 = 3X
...
10 = 10X
Paragon (P=2H)
11 = 22X
12 = 24X
...
16 = 32X
...
20 = 40X
21 = 84X
etc.
4 L12s = 96 X = 3 L16s = 96 X = 1 L24
The trick is you only really have to care at the tier boundaries.
Slightly complex, but I really dislike the x2 per 2 levels of 3e and x2 per 4 levels of 4e is still pretty harsh, and frankly both are _more_ complex.
I will note that you could do it the way I described, but it does make the math quite a bit more complex, so better off not.
If you consider 10th level as low paragon, the average 10th level fighter would be equivalent to a platoon or two of inexperienced soldiers. He should defeat 25-50 first levels before death due to only natural 1's causing they to survive.
But a 10th level fighter who specializes at fighting many weak much weaker enemies would need over 200 first levels to be challenged. Literally Dynasty Warriors.
But a 10th level fighter who specializes at fighting many weak much weaker enemies would need over 200 first levels to be challenged. Literally Dynasty Warriors.
Ok, I tried 11 = 20x, 12 = 21 or 22 etc. and couldn't make it work.
Interesting, although tier jump would have to be huge. Having such a jump would probably either rule out multi-classing or make the rules for that complicated.
