How many changes before it goes from D&D to "d20 Generic Fantasy"

[WayneLigon]

In all seriousness, I think the only criteria for me is: it's got the D&D logo on it.

Same here. Literally everything else could change. And eventually will, most likely.

 

[Zaruthustran]

For me, D&D is:

Using all the dice from d4 to d20 (with d20 for attacks)
Levels
Classes
Humans, Elves, and Dwarves as PCs
Magic (and Magic Missile)
Dungeons
Dragons, trolls, goblins, orcs, and undead as foes
Medieval-era weapons and armor (swords, bows, and plate armor)
Wondrous treasure

And, to a lesser extent:

Renaissance-era politics and cities
Dangerous, unknown wilderness

 

[Odhanan]

I'm just curious, what exactly would it take for D&D to stop being D&D to you?

I don't think that's about fluff or crunch per se. It's about well, "dungeons" and "dragons". If there is no exploration of locales involved, if there isn't the "dragon" (i.e. monster) waiting somewhere down below (or somewhere in the forest or whatever) to eat the PCs alive, if there isn't the treasure to be acquired, then D&D ceases to be D&D I think.

It's akin to what Mearls' was talking about as being the "core story" of D&D: a group of adventurers goes down the dungeon, explores the place, kills the bad guy, takes his stuff and goes back to the village to sell it. They do it all over again the next day. Or something to that effect.

 

[howandwhy99]

I once posed a hypothetical where Steve Jackson Games acquired the IP for D&D and released the "new Dungeons & Dragons game" with the trademark on the cover, but the rules were identical to GURPS. Several posters said that this game would still be D&D.

****************************

In my opinion, we have been at "d20 Fantasy" since the advent of "3e." 3.5 was d20 Fantasy, 2nd Edition.

I agree. GURPS&D, Rolemaster&D, Fate&D, FUDGE&D or WoD&D are all certainly possible, but that doesn't necessarily make them the same game.

Is it possible that the current player base simply doesn't like the majority of D&D's original mechanics?

 

[Branduil]

It has at least 4 base classes, several races, magic spells, and is called D&D.

 

[Arkhandus]

Is it in the fluff? So long as the recognisable races and classes are there, will it always be D&D no matter the mechanics?

Is it in the crunch? Do Saving Throws and Armor Class have to remain to make it D&D?

The fluff isn't going to go away, so it's not going to cease being D&D if they just stop using the Forgotten Realms, Greyhawk, and such. People will still find enough information on the settings and the planes and the denizens thereof, on the internet and from old supplements.

It would certainly be less like D&D if they just abandoned all the familiar settings, but it wouldn't matter too much. We'd all just cannibalize the old editions' fluff books for that.

The crunch is what matters for whether or not it's still D&D.

Classes with different roles and advantages (at least fighter/warrior, magic-user/wizard, priest/cleric, and thief/rogue among them, and there must be room for more than just the core few; there's always some extra optional classes of some sort), the traditional races with different benefits and drawbacks (humans, elves, dwarves, and probably halflings and gnomes, at least for me),

six ability scores (which must be Strength, Dexterity, Constitution, Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma), Armor Class, Hit Points, class-based BAB or THAC0 or a very similar mechanic, saving throws, damage rolls based on weapon, attack qualities (like damage type and reach) based on weapon, many different weapons with different attributes (no generic 'medium cutting weapon' or whatnot), various kinds of armor and shield with different attributes,

equipment proficiencies, miscellaneous skills, different degrees of prowess with skills or proficiencies or both, 10 or more levels, Experience Points, multiclassing of some sort, classic D&D and mythological monsters, classic D&D magic (psuedo-Vancian with distinct spell slots and spell levels), classic D&D spells, and alignments.

Anything varying from that should be restricted to optional rules variants and supplements, not the core. For use once in a while, or by folks who prefer other game systems but play D&D only for the settings or larger playerbase to make a group from. IMHO of course.

 

[Lanefan]

For me, D&D is:

Using all the dice from d4 to d20 (with d20 for attacks)
Levels
Classes
Humans, Elves, and Dwarves as PCs
Magic (and Magic Missile)
Dungeons
Dragons, trolls, goblins, orcs, and undead as foes
Medieval-era weapons and armor (swords, bows, and plate armor)
Wondrous treasure

Agreed fully, and I'll add:

Hobbits and Part-Elves as PC's
Ability scores of 3-18
6 abilities: Str., Int., Wis., Dex., Con., Cha.
Saving throws
Playable with only: 3 core books + some friends + a table + dice + pencils and paper + imagination

And, to a lesser extent:

Renaissance-era politics and cities
Dangerous, unknown wilderness

I'll add to this:

Never knowing everything as a player
The ability to try absolutely anything at least once
The word "dweomer"

Lane-"it's not a good game until you've used all the dice in the bag"-fan

 

[mhacdebhandia]

I guess I would say that, from a flavour standpoint, D&D has always been less than what I'd like it to be. I'd like things to be darker, weirder, more Planescape/Dark Sun/Ravenloft and less Dragonlance/Forgotten Realms/Tolkien.

Now, that's never going to happen, and the game would probably be less successful if it did (though perhaps not . . . I can always dream), but what I'm driving at is that you could take out a lot of what many consider to be important to D&D and it would still be D&D to me. Elves, halflings, dwarves, that sort of thing.

Mechanically, I think only a few things are seriously important: classes, levels, experience points, six ability scores, hit points, armour class, spells as discrete mechanical "objects" (rather than a freeform or effects-based magic system), et cetera.

 

[The Shaman]

Random harlot table? D&D.

No random harlot table? Not D&D.