How many people can be in a 5'X5' square?

kreynolds said:


Sorry about the split post, but I just noticed this edit.

When you're sharing that 5-foot square with someone else, you have less room to maneuver. Simple math.

I never said that you didn't have less room to maneuver. But 12.5 feet to manuever (1/2 of a 5' square) is 3 times as much room as 4.25 feet to maneuver (a 2.5 square).

You are saying that being restricted to 12.5 square feet of room to manuever makes it impossible to make a Reflex save.

The DMG says that being restricted to 4.25 square feet of room to manuever makes it impossible to make a reflex save.

You are very clearly trying to apply the ruling in the DMG (which assumes a very restricted space) to the situation of 2 people in a 5' square, which is obviously much less restrictive (because you have at least 3 times as much area to move in).

You need to support your assertion that 12.5 square feet of room is just as restrictive as 4.25 square feet of room.
 

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Caliban said:


I never said that you didn't have less room to maneuver. But 12.5 feet to manuever (1/2 of a 5' square) is 3 times as much room as 4.25 feet to maneuver (a 2.5 square).

Caliban, while I basically agree with you, one of two things is true:

1) Someone put crack in my coffee this morning; or
2) a 2.5 foot square contains 6.25 square feet -- 1/2 as much as a 2.5 x 5 foot square.

#2 makes more sense to me: a 2.5' square is 1/2 as big in each dimension as a 5' square, or 1/4 as large. But then again, crack makes you crazy.

Daniel
 

[Puts on asbestos suit before entering thread]

Not to get in the middle of anything here, but I noticed something in the DMG last night while persusing it (sorry, don't have it with me here to give a pg number to reference or exact quote, so I'll paraphrase):

In the section on or around pg 70 something and up, where all the different types of damage and abilities are talked about.

Under the Dragon Breath it said something like this (paraphrase):

A Dragon doesn't need to make a roll when it breathes, the stated area is filled. Creatures in the area need to save. (Zenon comments - to me, this is much like an area effect spell of fireball, etc)

Then then went on in the text where someone dove under a table, ducked behing a wall, but the one that stuck out to me was this one:

"and X covers her face with her arms" (near quote).

This to me implied that even with nowhere to go, the act of covering your vunerable and exposed parts with something, even other body parts of yours which were less vunerable, armored, etc. gave you the ability to make your save. It had nothing to do with getting out of an area, having something to hide under, etc. It would explain why, if you were pinned, that you might not get a save, or why a restrictive 2 1/2' shaft might not give you a save.

Just thought I'd try to contribute something here for consideration, everyone can go back to the normally scheduled argument [For the humor-impared, the preceeding comment was an attempt at humor. If you did not understand the humor, do not panic. Walk, not run, to the nearest comedian for treatment].
 
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Pielorinho said:


Caliban, while I basically agree with you, one of two things is true:

1) Someone put crack in my coffee this morning; or
2) a 2.5 foot square contains 6.25 square feet -- 1/2 as much as a 2.5 x 5 foot square.

#2 makes more sense to me: a 2.5' square is 1/2 as big in each dimension as a 5' square, or 1/4 as large. But then again, crack makes you crazy.

Daniel


Your right, I was off one decimal place when I was multiplying the .5. (.25 instead of 2.5). That's what I get for not using a calculator to multiply fractions.
 

Pielorinho said:


Caliban, while I basically agree with you, one of two things is true:

1) Someone put crack in my coffee this morning; or
2) a 2.5 foot square contains 6.25 square feet -- 1/2 as much as a 2.5 x 5 foot square.

#2 makes more sense to me: a 2.5' square is 1/2 as big in each dimension as a 5' square, or 1/4 as large. But then again, crack makes you crazy.

Daniel

Correct (#2). Of course, one should probably consider cubic feet of space rather than square feet, in which case a shaft is MUCH worse than the equivalent space in the open.

In other words, it's much worse to be paced in a 2-1/2 space with walls than a 2-1/2-foot space without walls.
 

Artoomis said:


Correct (#2). Of course, one should probably consider cubic feet of space rather than square feet, in which case a shaft is MUCH worse than the equivalent space in the open.

I think you're right, but not because we're considering cubic feet. The difference, AFAIAC, is that in a shaft, you're worming along on your belly. In a hallway, you're probably on your feet and can dodge in either direction. The height of the hallway isn't what's going to help you out -- it's the empty floor that you can leap to, or the room on either side of you that gives you the freedom to throw up your hands to shield yourself. Unless you're leaping straight up into the air to avoid the hallway fireball, height's probably not going to enter into it. Similarly, a particularly long shaft isn't going to make dodging a fireball any easier: in this case, your two dimensions are width and height, but length doesn't help.

Does that sound right to you?

Daniel
 

Pielorinho said:


I think you're right, but not because we're considering cubic feet. The difference, AFAIAC, is that in a shaft, you're worming along on your belly. In a hallway, you're probably on your feet and can dodge in either direction. The height of the hallway isn't what's going to help you out -- it's the empty floor that you can leap to, or the room on either side of you that gives you the freedom to throw up your hands to shield yourself. Unless you're leaping straight up into the air to avoid the hallway fireball, height's probably not going to enter into it. Similarly, a particularly long shaft isn't going to make dodging a fireball any easier: in this case, your two dimensions are width and height, but length doesn't help.

Does that sound right to you?

Daniel

Yes, it does sound right. I wasn't clear enough when I said we should be looking at volume rather than area, what I really meant was available volume, so that extra vertical space doesn't really help, but elbow room helps a great deal.
 

Zenon said:
"and X covers her face with her arms" (near quote).

This to me implied that even with nowhere to go, the act of covering your vunerable and exposed parts with something, even other body parts of yours which were less vunerable, armored, etc. gave you the ability to make your save. It had nothing to do with getting out of an area, having something to hide under, etc. It would explain why, if you were pinned, that you might not get a save, or why a restrictive 2 1/2' shaft might not give you a save.

Now, that makes a whole lot o' sense. Up until this point, the DMG simply stated that if you didn't have room to maneuver, you didn't get a reflex save. If the mere action of covering your vulnerable spots (such as your face) is enough, then that changes everything. Suddenly, it's no longer a matter of having enough room to maneuver, but simply being able to move enough to cover your face is all you need.

Ki Ryn brought this up a bit earlier, but I couldn't find anything in the DMG to back it up. But page 70 obviously backs up both of you. So, if you're in a 5-foot corridor, whether you are alone or sharing it with others, whether you are grappling or not, you get a save, simply because you have enough room to cover your face. I can live with that (except for the grappling part, which I’ll explain later), it's just that this whole time, covering your face wasn't an option, as you had to have room to move.

Caliban, I'd still like to respond to you though. Here's my thing. We know that if you don’t have room to move, you don’t get a reflex save. We also now know that if you have enough room to move to cover your face, you get a reflex save. However, this last is something that I didn’t know before, something that nobody knew before, and if anybody did know, they failed to mention it. This changes everything, but I’ll go ahead and explain my original argument, so keep in mind this is without knowledge that covering your face is all you need to do.

You pointed out that 4 people can easily fit within a 5-foot square. I concede this. You also pointed out that if 2 people are in the same 5-foot square, they have plenty of room to move, as illustrated here in this 5-foot square (A and B are the characters and X is empty space):

A X
X B

Now, if a fireball comes at these two people, A has enough room to move right or down, and B has enough room to move left or up, thus, both get their reflex saves. I have no problem conceding this point, but only because I now know that you merely need to be able to cover your face. Had I, or anyone else, known that before, this wouldn’t have been such a big issue.

But, what if they’re grappling? This was my biggest argument, the one thing I couldn’t get past in my mind. A and B got their saves because they both moved and there was nothing preventing them from doing so. If you’re grappling, you don’t automatically move. A is grappling B, and B is grappling A, so A is preventing B from moving, and B is preventing A from moving. Now, a fireball is shot at them. Which way do they move? First, you have to remember that they are grappling. When you’re grappling, you are trying to force your opponent to the ground or simply keep them busy. What if you don’t want your opponent to effectively protect himself from that fireball, knowing that you can probably soak up the damage but he probably can’t? What if you want to place him between yourself and the fireball? Do you have no choice in the matter? Are you forced to automatically make a reflex save? That doesn’t make sense given the mechanics of a grapple.

To make a reflex save, you must A) Be able to cover your face, and B) Have enough room to maneuver. If you are grappling, where and when you move is not automatic, and being able to cover your face is not automatic. You can’t automatically move in a grapple unless your opponent is also willing to move in the same direction as you. The simple mechanics of a grapple demand this, as everything is based on checks. However, you are not denied your reflex throw while grappling, even though you A) Can’t move unless your opponent is willing and B) Can’t effectively cover your weak spots. So, in my opinion, unless you and your opponent break the grapple or both move together, you can’t get a save. The grapple itself prevents this.

There is no clear cut answer to this (if there is, I'd like to know). There is no rule that solidly points one way or the other. The only thing to be found are two references requiring you to A) Be able to move or B) Be able to cover your face, and a grapple, logically, prevents both of these.
 
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