D&D 5E How many short rests per long rest?

[FrogReaver]

While all this is fine and dandy, damage arguments really don't show much because you have to assume all the potential damage is actually used. I've seen the paladin in our group overpower his smites and have a lot of wasted "potential" left over.

The only wasted damage is when your normal attack would have killed an enemy and you instead added resource sourced damage to the ability. If you attack and need 1 more damage to kill the enemy then using a resource ability to finish said enemy off isn't a waste.

Also, @FrogReaver , does your calculations include the BM use of Action Surge? I would think so, but I just wanted to check.

Yes

 

[FrogReaver]

As. A. Full. Caster. What's the boggle here? I'm obviously not talking about EB and DPR.

1. If the melee warlock is balanced around 1 short rest then arguing for 2 short rests is arguing that he be imbalanced.
2. I think the warlock compares with a full caster in most combat situations - he just is a lot less versatile in typical out of combat situations.

 

[Stoutstien]

I think you can to get a clearer picture if you look at encounter rounds and not encounters.
How many rounds does it take until a SR focused class is out of resources compared to a LR counter part? Could then compare burst and sustainable options.

Overall I wish all classes had both SR and LR pools to draw from so we didn't get this conflict.

 

[lowkey13]

*Deleted by user*

 

[Fenris-77]

1. If the melee warlock is balanced around 1 short rest then arguing for 2 short rests is arguing that he be imbalanced.
2. I think the warlock compares with a full caster in most combat situations - he just is a lot less versatile in typical out of combat situations.

The standard presented in the rules is 2 SR per LR. Are you suggesting that because of a single Warlock build's DPR that should be changed to 1 per? I don't agree. The Warlocks non-cantrip casting is very much balanced around 2 SRs, and lots of people play Warlocks for reasons other than the DPR provided by EB (which I find boring, personally, but that's just me). The class is very much power over utility for casting though, of course. Some utility creeps back in when you're taking non-melee invocations too, and I did account, roughly, for invocations when I compared the full casters.

 

[FrogReaver]

A level 5 warlock can cast 4 level 3 spells in a 1 short rest day. Eldritch Blast covers damage outside of those big spells so he doesn't need to use spell slots on damage.

Assuming 1 short rest
In a 1 combat day the warlock is weaker than the wizard
In a 2 combat day - the warlock can cast 2 level 3 spells each combat - potentially using fireball twice in each encounter.
In a 3 combat day - the warlock can cast fireball once in each easier encounter and twice in the harder encounter.
In a 4 combat day - the warlock can cast fireball once in each encounter.

In addition the warlock the warlock can eldritch blast every round he's not casting a big spell - from levels 5-10 this is comparable to a level 1 magic missile (the best wizard damage spell)

Let's look at the wizard now

Assuming 1 short rest
In a 1 combat day he is better than the warlock
In a 2 combat day - the wizard can cast fireball in one encounter and fireball twice in another. Even if he used all his 2nd level slots it's not apparent that would ever make up for the lack of the warlocks extra level 3 spell.
In a 3 combat day - wizard can cast a fireball in each encounter. However same thing as before. All his remaining slots won't make up for the difference in not having that extra level 3 spell.
In a 4 combat day - The wizard will be without a level 3 spell in one encounter.

The only issue is that warlocks don't scale very much more in power from level 5-10. Wizards gain tremendous power in that range. So in this example level 5 is a bit of a best case for the warlock. As is level 11 in the future.

So, I think a level 10 warlock needs something compared to a level 10 wizard... but I don't really think it's more short rests.

 

[FrogReaver]

The standard presented in the rules is 2 SR per LR. Are you suggesting that because of a single Warlock build's DPR that should be changed to 1 per? I don't agree. The Warlocks non-cantrip casting is very much balanced around 2 SRs, and lots of people play Warlocks for reasons other than the DPR provided by EB (which I find boring, personally, but that's just me). The class is very much power over utility for casting though, of course. Some utility creeps back in when you're taking non-melee invocations too, and I did account, roughly, for invocations when I compared the full casters.

The rules actually are 1-2 short rests per long rest. I'm suggesting that 1 should be the typical. But just like there will be an occasional day with no short rests - there should also be an occasional day with 2 short rests.

 

[FrogReaver]

Basic Rules, p. 57:
Short Rests
In general, over the course of a full adventuring day, the party will likely need to take two short rests, about one-third and two-thirds of the way through the day.

DM's Guide, p. 84
Short Rests
In general, over the course of a full adventuring day, the party will likely need to take two short rests, about one-third and two-thirds of the way through the day.

Sage Advice Compendium 2019
Is there a hard limit on how many short rests characters can take in a day, or is this purely up to the DM to decide?
The only hard limit on the number of short rests you can take is the number of hours in a day. In practice, you’re also limited by time pressures in the story and foes interrupting.


There is no argument that the design ratio is 2:1. Nor is there any argument that the majority of table have trouble getting to even that number, at least based on a perusal of enworld and other forums in general. As many tables have difficulties getting to the requisite 6-8 encounters a day, it is unsurprising that most short-rest classes fall short (ahem) of the number that they are balanced for.

Given the difficulties in creating DPR spreadsheets (and the amount of work that entails, given the necessary assumptions and work), it is unremarkable and unsurprising that no one has yet created one that fully takes into account resource management as well. That said, I look forward to seeing that at some point, as opposed to cherrypicked examples.

Until such time, perhaps someone wishes to start a thread discussing how overpowered all those shortrest classes are compared to the ridiculously underpowered classes like Paladins and Wizards, and see how it goes.

As demonstrated: the numbers suggest it should be 1 short rest most the time for balance.

 

[DND_Reborn]

The rules actually are 1-2 short rests per long rest. I'm suggesting that 1 should be the typical. But just like there will be an occasional day with no short rests - there should also be an occasional day with 2 short rests.

I think when it varies, it allows different classes to shine more.

When you have no short rests, long rest classes can step into the spot-light, having 2 allows short-resters to shine during key moments, and the one rest is a good benchmark most of the time.

 

[Fenris-77]

@FrogReaver - What if I'm not using combat as the sole measure of utility? And not using damage as the sole tool of comparison? I'm not arguing with your DPR math, I just don't find it as important as you do. Nor, I suspect, did the game designers. Your numbers might suggest otherwise when it comes to rest ratios, but your numbers aren't the only tool in the toolbox.