How much effect on ECL should Fast Healing have?

[Jarval]

I've always thought Fast Healing was quite difficult to place an ECL value on. At low values (1 or 2) it doesn't have much effect in combat, but allows the PC to fully heal in between encounters. So, what would you say is a suitable adjustment to ECL for Fast Healing 1, 3, 5 and 10?

 

[Crothian]

That's really hard to say. ECL is guess work to begin with. Fast Healing one would be CR+1. Fast Healing 10 I'd place at ecl+5. THat might be hi, but it is pretty darn powerful. THe others would be ECL+2, +3 respectively.

But those are ju guesses and might not be the best. ECL is more of a complete package dort of thing then one ability rated this way.

 

[Anubis]

No way would fast healing 1 be CR/ECL +1 . . . It ain't that useful . . .

Check out the stuff UK and I have posted on the subject, we have already finalized the effects of fast healing/regeneration. Now if only we could get divinity, damage reduction, spell-like abilities, integrated class levels, and immunities worked out . . .

Anyway, fast healing 10 works out to be ECL/CR +1. Basically, you get ECL +1/2 per 5 points of fast healing/regeneration.

 

[Crothian]

I think you are under rating fast healing. Live through a battle, and wait a few minutes at most, and you are back to full HPs. Healing a little bit during the battle is nice too, keeps you alive a little longer. The cleric doesn't have to waste spells or other resources on you, so he has spells that can do other things now.

So, would you really allow fast healing to be added to all your PCs at no ecl cost? Fast Healing is an amazing ability.

 

[Anubis]

I think you are under rating fast healing. Live through a battle, and wait a few minutes at most, and you are back to full HPs. Healing a little bit during the battle is nice too, keeps you alive a little longer. The cleric doesn't have to waste spells or other resources on you, so he has spells that can do other things now.

So, would you really allow fast healing to be added to all your PCs at no ecl cost? Fast Healing is an amazing ability.

At no cost? No, the minimum for any ability is ECL +1/4 by default. Fast healing 1-4 is ECL +1/4, fast healing 5-9 is ECL +1/2, fast healing 10-14 is ECL +1, etc.

I think you are seriously overestimating the power of fast healing. As UK and I have already figured out, fast healing, although useful, is not useful enough to warrant huge ECL modifiers. Sure, you may be able to heal yourself between battles, but that only saves a little bit of money in the long run, as any intelligent party will stock up on Wands of Cure Light Wounds as early as possible. Honestly, it's not enough to warrant any more than the ECL +1/2 per 5 points that UK and I have given it.

Same goes for regenration.

 

[Jarval]

I'm with Crothian here. Fast Healing 10 only giving a boost of +1 ECL seems a little generous, and even more so for regeneration.

Where can I find your and UK's ECL rules BTW?

 

[Destil]

Fast healing would be a big advantage to ECL, but unless it's quite a lot wouldn't affect CR at all (most fights last only a few rounds, Fast Healing 1 is about equelvent to having an extra 5 tempory HP before a fight).

ECL really can't be put togeather with formulas most of the time... Fast Healing 1 most likely wouldn't boost the ECL of a creature that could already cast a cure spell at will, for instance. While fast healing 20 would be an amazing benifit to anything. You just need to evluate each creature on a case by case basis, and re-evluate them after some playtesting.

 

[Crothian]

At no cost? No, the minimum for any ability is ECL +1/4 by default. Fast healing 1-4 is ECL +1/4, fast healing 5-9 is ECL +1/2, fast healing 10-14 is ECL +1, etc.

Do you guys have a bunch abilities with their individual costs? I'd like to see what you have.

 

[Jeph]

ECL +1 for fast healing 10 is just about the stupidest thing I've ever heard.

Okay, let's assume the average battle lasts 4 to 6 rounds, for most encounters. Even short ones usually last 2. That's +50 HP on average, regenerateing between encounters. I'd rate it at +1 ECL per 2 Fast Healing, and +2 ECL per +3 Regeneration.

So, what you're saying is, +50 HP, and the ability to cure all damage to self at will when not under stress, is +1 ECL? Ummmmm . . . your wrong. Consider this: A party of 2nd level characters comes across a Wolf, but this wolf has Fast Healing 10. They won't even be able to touch it!

Jusm MHO,
Jeph

 

[Anubis]

I'm with Crothian here. Fast Healing 10 only giving a boost of +1 ECL seems a little generous, and even more so for regeneration.

It may *seem* generous, but in practice and in testing, it really isn't. Fast healing really doesn't do as much as some people believe it does.

Where can I find your and UK's ECL rules BTW?

UK hasn't posted his final version as of yet, or any full version, but he and I have debated it continually in the Immortal's Handbook topic. I once thought fast healing was more powerful myself, until I listened to what he had to say, actually tested it, and found out otherwise.

As for my listing, I have the most current version of my own system on my ECL thread. Go on over and take a look, but be aware that it isn't perfect as of yet. I'm still tweaking it. At least it's there as a starting point for others interesting in doing something with it, though.

Fast healing would be a big advantage to ECL, but unless it's quite a lot wouldn't affect CR at all (most fights last only a few rounds, Fast Healing 1 is about equelvent to having an extra 5 tempory HP before a fight).

Remember, ECL and CR are technically the same thing. That may not be how the core rules use it, but it IS how UK and I use it. Doing it any other way, it would be IMPOSSIBLE to create a system that works. ECL and CR both mean the same thing. Both are the measure of a creatures innate powers. Neither take equiment into consideration, so equipment is not a factor.

Like I said, if you try to have ECL and CR be different, you'll NEVER find anything that works. Trust us, we know. We've tried. UK and have have, together put (I'm guessing) hundreds of hours into studying this particular subject.

The basis of ECL and CR being the same is simple: PCs are, by default, stronger than NPCs of the same level. As such, a creature with ECL as a PC will naturally have more power than a creature of the same level. In testing, it works out perfectly, believe me. ECL and CR are the same. The only reason we still have ECL AND CR is because at higher levels, CR is lower than ECL because it takes more levels to gain power, and XP is still calculated by CR, taking the party's average level as average CR instead.

Hope I cleared that issue up . . .

ECL really can't be put togeather with formulas most of the time... Fast Healing 1 most likely wouldn't boost the ECL of a creature that could already cast a cure spell at will, for instance. While fast healing 20 would be an amazing benifit to anything. You just need to evluate each creature on a case by case basis, and re-evluate them after some playtesting.

The reason you can't calculate it is because you haven't yet come to the realization that ECL and CR are teh same. Having overlapping abilities doesn't take away from ECL. For instance, most fast healing is Extraordinary and thus is not stopped by an Antimagic Field, while healing spells and spell-like abilities are.

You gotta take the sum of all powers, whether they overlap or not. Go check out my ECL thread for details.

Do you guys have a bunch abilities with their individual costs? I'd like to see what you have.

Go over to my ECL thread, it's all there. Most abilities are only ECL +1/4. The system details all common things that are not. DM discretion is necessary any which way, although I'm starting a huge list of ECLs/CRs for ALL monsters released thus far. It'll be a slow process, but it'll be up eventually.