How Per Encounter power recharging should work

[Mistwell]

If it operates like Book of Nine Swords, without the recharge-in-combat mechanic, then yes you will be able to use them (some at least) out of combat, and you need time to rest/exercise/meditate/pray/commune with the spirits/whatever to regain between encounters.

If you are caught between encounters and your rest/exercise/meditation/prayer is interrupted, then you don't get those powers back.

So if you have, for example, a 50' teleport power, and you want to teleport to the top of a 5 story building while not in an encounter, you can do it. But, you then need to take some time to rest/exercise/meditate/pray/commune/whatever before you can teleport again. And, if it turns out there is an encounter when you arrive on that roof, well, you will be short of that teleport for the encounter.

 

[Kunimatyu]

Well, I thought the Book of Iron Might got it right for combat maneuvers. BAB penalties to hit and other riskiness built into certain maneuvers. If your character has less chance of striking an opponent and possibly risk their opponent getting free attacks, trip attempts, saves, etc., which, if successful, can also negate the effects or prevent the maneuver, the player is not going to keep repeatedly using the most powerful maneuvers against opponents as skilled or more skilled than the character. Well, not unless the character is being played as stupid or suicidal.

And if there's a particular move with few penalties versus a given opponent, it'll be spammed repeatedly for the duration of the fight. Maybe more "realistic" in a sense, but certainly not dramatic and not very challenging.

I tend to think of D&D as representing dramatic combat like you'd see in a book or movie, where every character uses signature moves, but doesn't repeateadly do the same thing over and over. RL combat has a tendency to be brutal and quick.

 

[small pumpkin man]

But we just can't go too far on encounter powers rationalization, we will never be satisfied, there will always be a corner case that doesn't make any sense.
I'm really worried about the game itself.
If the rule is rest 1 minute outside combat to recharge encounter powers, I can see characters finishing a combat and laying down to ground to rest a little, even before looting, just to make sure they aren't caught unpowered.

*last monster is defeated*
-Quick guys, let's catch our breath fast, I hear enemies coming, let those coins there Rogue! We get them later, OMG OMG they are coming, rest rest rest!!!"

Umn, what? That's not appropriate to you for characters to be better after a short break, or to want to catch their breath after a fight? Admittedly the lack of granularity could be a problem, (with the sharp cut off point) but seriously, what's the problem here?

And corner cases are things you can't really talk about untill you've read the full rules.

 

[BASHMAN]

I still have issues with per encounter powers.

1- I wanna know what happens to encounter powers outside combat! How often can I use them?

Last night this was rather humerous in my group. I was playing a Crusader-- the only healer in the party. When combat was over, and people were still hurt, I would punch somebody (for subdual) to heal someone else! It was kinda funny with some volunteering to take a punch so I could heal them, while others got mad about it. I played it off by knighting the party member in question "and now, no man may clout thee in such a fashion again, arise a knight!" That took some of the sting out of it...

2- I'm worried about the mentioning of the "wait x minutes and you are recharged", because what if an encounter starts before that? I saw people saying "if it happens it's still the same encounter" but it's not. Party kill all monster, take their loot, an are attacked by a new group of monster, before the x minutes passed. It's a new encounter, come on!

Yeah, this bugs. It wasn't an issue last night, but there should be some sort of way to get x/minute or something, if people want to micromanage it. Say you get 10 powers, that fully recover after 5 minutes rest, but only get 2 minutes rest-- so you should get 4 of those powers back, not 0 and not 10.

3- They mentioned some martial powers can only be used once per encounter, because "the monster won't fall for the same trick again". But what if a new monster joins the combat, can I use that wasted encounter maneuver against him? I don't like this line of rationalization. Just say martial powers use some kind of energy, effort, momentum, weariness, inner power/will, etc.

Yeah, that "same trick" thing sounds too hand-wavy. I have no problem with them calling it Ki, a combo meter, limit breaks, or whatever, but If they give an explanation like that, when the situation doesn't fit the explanation, it only makes sense to allow the person to do it again-- or even worse, use it again in the same encounter, claiming, well Orc #2 didn't SEE me do that to Orc #1 because he was around a corner at the time...

 

[jasin]

Last night this was rather humerous in my group. I was playing a Crusader-- the only healer in the party. When combat was over, and people were still hurt, I would punch somebody (for subdual) to heal someone else! It was kinda funny with some volunteering to take a punch so I could heal them, while others got mad about it. I played it off by knighting the party member in question "and now, no man may clout thee in such a fashion again, arise a knight!" That took some of the sting out of it...

It's your game and all, but this was against both the spirit and the letter of the rules: "This foe must pose a threat to you or your allies in some direct, immediate way."

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

It's your game and all, but this was against both the spirit and the letter of the rules: "This foe must pose a threat to you or your allies in some direct, immediate way."

Though one must admit that the rules implementation probably could have been better to faciliate that intent. Or at least, there should be a better implementation.

 

[Majoru Oakheart]

Though one must admit that the rules implementation probably could have been better to faciliate that intent. Or at least, there should be a better implementation.

I think the implementation worked just fine as along as a DM followed the clause about enemies posing a threat or the power doesn't work. Played a crusader for a while and it was a lot of fun with no arguments or rules confusion at all. A bunch of jokes about attacking the party members I didn't like to heal the ones I did. I figured they DID pose a threat to me in a direct, immediate way, they were fighters and paladins and they were honing in on my role in the group.

 

[Nine Hands]

Thats the whole point of my thread. There SHOULD be one. See my SW example. If there is no in-battle recharge mechanic, it completely breaks suspension of disbelief.

Since most of the once per encounter abilities in SWSE are Force Powers (or Starship Maneuvers), you refresh all powers when you roll a 20 on a Use the Force check or Pilot roll. That is an in-battle recharge mechanic and it works VERY well.

 

[Lord Zardoz]

I still have issues with per encounter powers.
2- I'm worried about the mentioning of the "wait x minutes and you are recharged", because what if an encounter starts before that? I saw people saying "if it happens it's still the same encounter" but it's not. Party kill all monster, take their loot, an are attacked by a new group of monster, before the x minutes passed. It's a new encounter, come on!

I expect that what exactly constitutes an encounter will be worked out on a
'per table' basis, rather than there being a hard and fast rule for it.

There was a previous comment regarding an encounter that basically said that everyone who is capable of running in to help with a fight could be considered a single encounter. In that regard, I do not think 1 or 2 rounds between re-enforcements would reset any per encounter powers.

In addition to that, not all DM's run chained encounters very often, so it will probably just not come up in very many situations. Some Dm's will run a fight with just one or 2 large and dangerous monsters. Others will run fights with a large number of weak opponents. But in my years of DM'ing, I cannot recall running any encounters that would create the situatio you describe.

I would use what can be called the Bathroom Rule for determining when a new encounter starts. If the player characters have enough time to attend to 'business', and enough time to attend to the personal hygiene measures, and get their pants back on before fighting resumes, than it should be considered a new encounter.

END COMMUNICATION

 

[Dragonblade]

Since most of the once per encounter abilities in SWSE are Force Powers (or Starship Maneuvers), you refresh all powers when you roll a 20 on a Use the Force check or Pilot roll. That is an in-battle recharge mechanic and it works VERY well.

I do like it but it shouldn't be the only way to recharge. Any recharge mechanic shouldn't depend on randomness.

Last night this was rather humerous in my group. I was playing a Crusader-- the only healer in the party. When combat was over, and people were still hurt, I would punch somebody (for subdual) to heal someone else! It was kinda funny with some volunteering to take a punch so I could heal them, while others got mad about it.

This is a great example of some of the issues inherent in the system. It should be assumed that outside of combat, per encounter power are essentially at-will powers.

Otherwise, you have silly situations like this. And if you say, "You shouldn't be able to use these powers outside of combat." Well, I find that a deeply unsatisfying answer that makes no logical sense.

If a character can do something such as heal an ally with a power in combat, they should be able to heal their allies freely outside of combat, rest a minute (assuming thats the only recharge mechanic) and then do it again. They also shouldn't have to use rules sophistry to do it either (e.g. punching an ally for subdual damage).

I have no problem with this, it simply allows the PCs to approach every encounter fresh. Something I believe the 4e designers specifically wanted to encourage in order to avoid the "15-minute" adventuring day.

We actually play this way now in my 3e games with some house rules, and it works out very well. Long before 4e was announced we realized that the 15 minute adventuring day problem was causing serious issues with our game, so we addressed it by coming up with a spell point system that allows casters to recover their points over time.

Half of my group are pretty serious powergamers too, but believe it or not we use our powergaming ability for good, rather than evil! We like to play tough characters, but we also want a challenge, we don't like to walk over everything and we want to make it easier for the DM to challenge us, not harder.

But we also want rules that make logical sense and don't rely on an arbitrary metagame balancing mechanic that ruins suspension of disbelief. The notion that powers inexplicably become unavailable to reuse, or are inaccessible outside of combat is simply ridiculous.

I'm really excited about 4e, and I like 90% of what I'm hearing. I think Noonan, Mearls, Collins, Perkins, and company are all awesome designers, developers, and editors. I have confidence that they will put together a good game. But if per encounter powers aren't freely accessible outside of combat and don't provide a viable non-random refresh mechanic in combat, then to put it bluntly I consider that one area where they dropped the ball, and downright poor design.