How Per Encounter power recharging should work

[ThirdWizard]

How long does an effect that last until the end of the encounter, last when used outside combat?

The way I would design it would be:

- Rest for 5 minutes to regain per encounter abilities
- When you regain per encounter abilities this way, lose encounter-duration buffs

This has the added benefit* of allowing PCs control over buff duration.

*unless you don't like that, in which case it isn't a benefit

 

[shilsen]

Where I have a big problem with the PCs being able to "approach every encounter fresh" in that there is no way to wear them down slowly; to have early battles weaken them so the later battles become more dangerous. The more we hear, the less important per-day abilities seem to be,...

Since the issue of being able to wear them down is heavily dependent on the strength of per-day abilities, I guess we'll just have to wait till the game comes out to find out how it works. We know (I think) that the Second Wind ability, which is a pretty crucial one, is only usable 1/day (and, I'm guessing, probably a 2nd time via a feat).

Also note that you can wear down PCs through a use of other resources, such as limited use magic items.

yet there's no reasonable way a party should be as "fresh" for its 5th or 10th battle of the day as it was for its first.

Reasonable depends on context. Would it be reasonable for a person in our world to be as fresh for his 5th or 10th battle in the same day as his first? No. Would it be reasonable for Achilles or Hercules or Cuchulainn or Bhima to be as fresh for his 5th or 10th battle as his 1st? Hell yeah! And a D&D PC, especially with a few levels under his belt, is a whole lot closer to the mythical characters I mentioned than to anything in our world.

 

[Dragonblade]

Where I have a big problem with the PCs being able to "approach every encounter fresh" in that there is no way to wear them down slowly; to have early battles weaken them so the later battles become more dangerous. The more we hear, the less important per-day abilities seem to be, yet there's no reasonable way a party should be as "fresh" for its 5th or 10th battle of the day as it was for its first.

Lanefan

I think this is a good example of what the designers have called "applying 3rd edition thinking to 4th edition". There is no more wearing down PCs over multiple encounters anymore. Nor should there be.

It makes encounter balancing difficult, and if the PCs take on too many encounters, its easy to get a TPK. Likewise, it brings back the problem of the 15 minute adventuring day. Two encounters and then everybody camping because they used up their abilities is not fun. Even if its a 5 minute refresh, you still have situations where the PCs will immediately barricade themselves in a room, pull out the old hourglass and ignore the monsters banging on the doors. Finally, when they have got their powers back, they open the door and attack again.

 

[GreatLemur]

I think this is a good example of what the designers have called "applying 3rd edition thinking to 4th edition". There is no more wearing down PCs over multiple encounters anymore. Nor should there be.

I think there's a large portion of truth in that--the idea of making later encounters more dangerous by "wearing down" the party instead of amping up the challenges is pretty much a game-specific thing--but I also think Lanefan's assertion that a party shouldn't still be "fresh" after any fights is (from a logical, simulationist viewpoint) perfectly reasonable. But then we're getting into things like endurance mechanics, and resources represented by point pools which can be refreshed by less than eight hours' rest, and so on, and I think a lot of people are turned off by that whole direction. I'm not sure if I am, mind you, but I believe a lot of people are.

 

[LostSoul]

How long does an effect that last until the end of the encounter, last when used outside combat?

Here's my answer:

If you are in an encounter, you know how long it will last and/or how often you can use it. Obviously.

If you are not in an encounter, whether or not you can use the power won't matter. There are no risks to your PC. So what if he uses his "Awesome Step" power to jump into bed, or "Flame Touch" to start a fire, or "Death Grip" to open his can of pickles.

It's not an encounter; it doesn't matter.

 

[Nebulous]

In SW Saga, the fact that Jedi cannot refresh their powers at all in-battle unless they take a talent really bugs me. The talent is not even that powerful, you can spend a full round action doing nothing and refresh one power. Personally, I think a refresh mechanic that weak should just be the default for all Jedi.

It drives me nuts. "Sorry, my character can't use the force anymore in this fight." It feels completely artificial and ruins my suspension of disbelief. Its like Vancian casting all over again.

Can't you spend a Force Point to recharge your suite?

 

[Toryx]

I have two thoughts regarding the discussion at hand:

Encounter Powers: They're called encounter powers for a reason. If you can just recharge them willy-nilly in the middle of the encounter then you're totally defeating the point.

Realism in Recharge Reasoning: This is called fantasy for a reason. If I want realism, I'll go to Iraq. Suspension of disbelief is pretty much a pre-requisite to fantasy roleplay.

Ultimately, having a defined rest period to recharge the encounter powers is a simple, straightforward way to define encounters that avoids confusion. If that's what they're going with, I think they're on the right track. Trying to figure out a way to rest for the required time without getting attacked just provides another aspect of tactical reasoning to the game. Sounds good to me.

 

[Dragonblade]

I have two thoughts regarding the discussion at hand:

Encounter Powers: They're called encounter powers for a reason. If you can just recharge them willy-nilly in the middle of the encounter then you're totally defeating the point.

Realism in Recharge Reasoning: This is called fantasy for a reason. If I want realism, I'll go to Iraq. Suspension of disbelief is pretty much a pre-requisite to fantasy roleplay.

Ultimately, having a defined rest period to recharge the encounter powers is a simple, straightforward way to define encounters that avoids confusion. If that's what they're going with, I think they're on the right track. Trying to figure out a way to rest for the required time without getting attacked just provides another aspect of tactical reasoning to the game. Sounds good to me.

The problem is that arbitrarily ruling that powers cannot be refreshed in combat is precisely what breaks suspension in disbelief. Like Vancian casting before it, this is reflected in no novel I have ever read (with the exception of Dying Earth and then not even that), and no movie I have ever seen. Its an artificial metagame balancing mechanic that serves no purpose other than to jar you out of fantasy and remind you that you are playing a game where mechanics are defined purely to enforce a somewhat dubious assertion of game balance.

A simple in-battle refresh mechanic like I suggested previously not only maintains game balance, it also allows me to play without the verisimilitude of my fantasy campaign being disrupted. Its a no-brainer. If game design cannot both achieve balance and verisimilitude, then I consider it poor design.

Spending a full round to refresh one power is not willy-nilly. It requires tactical decision making, does not threaten the integrity of the per encounter balancing mechanic, and allows one to elegantly maintain suspension of disbelief.

 

[LostSoul]

Spending a full round to refresh one power is not willy-nilly. It requires tactical decision making, does not threaten the integrity of the per encounter balancing mechanic, and allows one to elegantly maintain suspension of disbelief.

It's boring. Who wants to sit there and do nothing?

 

[HeinorNY]

I made a lot of questions, so I'll give my 2 cents on the subject.

By "encounter" I mean combat, because it's what really matters after in this discussion.

1-Per encounter powers recharge when encounter ends. If characters are attacked by more monster one round after the previous encounter ended, they get all their encounter powers.
1a-I'm really just guessing, but I think 95-99% of the encounters a group face have a clear and distinguishable end. For the other encounters the Bo9S rule of thumb (1 fullround without being attacked or targeted by enemies or attacking enemies), or when initiative counter doesn't matter anymore, or simply use DM's discription.

2-When using encounter powers outside combat, a character can use them at will whenever they could, by analogy, take a 10 when using a skill. So, if the rogue is in a situation he could take a 10 to lockpick a door (not being threatened or under serious stress, etc), he could also use his "Roguish Lucky Kick" encounter power every round to knock down the door.
2a- Maybe there will be encounter powers that are only effective in combat, or can only be activated by things that only happen when character are fighting.

3- Buffs that last until the end of the encounter, when used outside combat. Well, maybe they have some conditions to be applied that only appear when character are fighting, or maybe they are just really useful in a combat. But I have no idea so far.