D&D 5E How should the Sorcerer look when he (or she) comes back?

Grimmjow

First Post
I don't think most playable races are strong enough to be source for sorcerous heritage. They are not iconically powerful but rather mundane. I think there should not be dwarven heritage or elven heritage, although it could be fey heritage with bloodline from archfey or maybe also from unicorns?:-S

you miss understand. i meant that if they dont make a shdaow based bloodline for sorcerers then they need something to represent living creatures in the shadowfel. The Shadar-kai would do that just fine. Even if they do put a shadow sorc in there i wanna see the shader-kai as a race.
 

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Grimmjow

First Post
The more I think about it, I'm not sure about the bloodline thing, it was only vaguely mentioned (draconic) in the 3rd Ed PHB, right? I would prefer it to be a wild mage type or something, or folded into wizard (non-Vancian).

while i never played 3e or 3.5 so i wouldn't know. Im a 4e player (or at least thats what i started with) so blood lines make more sense to me. i didn't like how wizards had to be controllers and then sorcerers were called strikers but had a lot of controller powers. Again i felt like they were to close to each other. I hope that wizards of the cost makes them into two separate classes that only have one thing in common: Arcane Magic.
 

Drowdruid

First Post
I have an idea for bloodline: Ancestral Bloodline which come from powerful ancestor maybe an archmage and maybe give you transformations into paragon example of your race. Haha i'm more elfy than all elves! Haha I'm ideal:p
 

ZombieRoboNinja

First Post
In the second playtest, the draconic sorcerer had its own unique flavor and mechanics (even though it shared most of its spells with the wizard). It was my favorite class in that playtest.

But that made some wizard fans complain because THEY wanted spell points. So WOTC said okay, we'll make the spellcasting system flexible so you can make a spellpoint wizard. Great.

And some sorcerer fans complain because they wanted a sorcerer who wasn't proficient with martial weapons and armor. So WOTC said okay, we'll make the new class its own mage/fighter thing and make the sorcerer... something else. Which apparently won't be tied to any particular spellcasting mechanic.

So frankly, I have no idea WHAT the 5e sorcerer is supposed to be. They made a cool class with the second playtest and then said that basically every part of it didn't qualify as sorcerer-specific enough.
 

Nellisir

Hero
Shouldn't fluff and mechanics go hand-in-hand?

Well, yes and no. Fluff and mechanics should be complimentary, but they usually don't need to be interlocked. Paladin fluff on rogue mechanics are not complimentary, but you can build a character that almost perfectly exemplifies a paladin using a fighter/cleric multiclass. Given the quantity of feats in 3e, you could probably build a really good paladin using nothing but a fighter.

If you start with the fluff: a sorcerer gains arcane magic because of a power creature who helped sire his bloodline. In this case a dragon. Now you have to use mechanics to show both his arcane power and the powers from the dragon that sired his family.
Sure. First, though, you have to define some terms. What is arcane magic? In proper D&D, arcane magic is anything that isn't psionic or divine. That's pretty loosey-goosey. It doesn't have any special properties outside of not being something else. IMC, arcane magic requires preparation, components, and is recorded in some fashion, so a "traditional" 3e sorcerer would not use arcane magic, they'd use innate magic.

OK, I'm running short on time, so I'm not going to write this whole thing out. Sorry
 

I'm A Banana

Potassium-Rich
So, to me, what defines a wizard is that its spells are from books. There's a lot of different ways to be a "book," from a literal tome to tattoos to runestones to papyrus scrolls, but what all wizards share is that their magic comes from studying and applying magical knowledge gained from some form of language or formula. Non-literate societies cannot produce wizards, because wizards must have some form of "language," because that is how they access their spells.

Because of this, wizard spells are ritualistic, regimented, and have a grammar, order, and pattern to them. When a wizard casts a Fireball, it is because they have spoken its true name and given it shape with the structure of their sentence. When a wizard casts Invisibility it is because they apply a formula to their subject which dispels the elements of their subject that can be seen. Wizards are book-bound. They are educated spellcasters.

I think this comes into play mostly with the idea of "preparing" spells. Wizards prepare their magic in advance. They study. They anticipate. Whether they use at-wills, dailies, or spell points, or whatever, their spells are prepared from their books in advance. They essentially "equip" themselves with a spell list every morning.

This gives them remarkable versatility and adaptability. They can know a wonderful spell for a specific situation. They have the precise tool to accomplish a goal, if they know about the goal far enough in advance. Whatever magic system a wizard is under, I hope they have this element.

What defines a sorcerer for me is that its spells are from itself. It's a mutant. There's a lot of different ways magic could be inside of you -- questionable parentage, bizarre ritual, drank a water elemental as a kid, spent a little too much time with the fey...but whatever mutated the sorcerer, their spells are things that arise from within them.

Because of this, a sorcerer casts its spells easily. It doesn't need the elaborate rituals and grammar of the wizard. Casting magic is reflex for a sorcerer, in-born and automatic. Casting burning hands is as easy as using a fork, and learning fireball might be like learning to use chopsticks. Sorcerers are intimate with magic. A wizard's spell might be highly dictated calligraphy, a Sorcerer's spell is graffiti. It's personal.

I think this comes into play in the idea of having a "locked" spell list. A sorcerer who learns Fireball isn't speaking some arcane grammar, they're just wiggling their fingers and shouting some nonsense and there it is! But because they are their own spellbook, they can't change these spells. Changing that fireball to a lightning bolt would be as impossible as willing yourself to have an extra finger, or growing a second head, or squinting to change your eye color. But since magic is easy for them, they can do it repeatedly. They don't spend up their arcane energies forming careful magical poetry, they freestyle, creating magic out of their own personal reserve, and so they produce much more quantity. They can't grow an extra eye, but they can blink the eyes they have all they want.

I think to reflect that, you might want to give sorcerers an option, at first level, of choosing a "bloodline" that locks them into certain spells as they advance, and maybe giving them more at-will and recharging magic. A sorcerer might not use any daily spells. The bloodline shouldn't physically mutate them, but the spells might -- when a sorcerer learns Fly, maybe they have the option of growing wings. When a sorcerer casts Fireball, maybe they have the option of making it a cone of fire from their mouth. When a sorcerer casts Fear, maybe they have the option of it radiating from them in a burst. Even if they don't show any outward signs of it, though, a sorcerer with a dragon bloodline will have spells that reflect that bloodline (even if it's not literally a bloodline -- maybe the dragon imparted magic onto them).

Wizards can customize their spell list, and might know an infinite variety of spells.

Sorcerers are locked into their spell list, but might cast those handful of spells forever.

That's the big distinction to me. Books vs. Bloodlines. Classical Beethoven vs. old school beat-boxin'. DaVinci vs. Jackson Pollack. Careful, prepared, methodical, and powerful, vs. spontaneous, rapid-fire, chaotic, and liberating.
 

Grimmjow

First Post
you have to define some terms. What is arcane magic? In proper D&D, arcane magic is anything that isn't psionic or divine.

now you starting to go into what DnD is proper and which isn't. Don't go into that or it could turn this form so far away from what i intended it to be that ill have to go reposting it with a new name to try to get it going agian.

i like the midgets idea about how they can gain magic depending on what kind of bloodline they pick, however i do think it would be cool if they also gained some outward change as they leveled up. On the other hand when they made the warlock class they too changed as they leveled up, so maybe that should stay with them.
 

Grydan

First Post
So, to me, what defines a wizard is that its spells are from books. There's a lot of different ways to be a "book," from a literal tome to tattoos to runestones to papyrus scrolls, but what all wizards share is that their magic comes from studying and applying magical knowledge gained from some form of language or formula. Non-literate societies cannot produce wizards, because wizards must have some form of "language," because that is how they access their spells.

Because of this, wizard spells are ritualistic, regimented, and have a grammar, order, and pattern to them. When a wizard casts a Fireball, it is because they have spoken its true name and given it shape with the structure of their sentence. When a wizard casts Invisibility it is because they apply a formula to their subject which dispels the elements of their subject that can be seen. Wizards are book-bound. They are educated spellcasters.

I think this comes into play mostly with the idea of "preparing" spells. Wizards prepare their magic in advance. They study. They anticipate. Whether they use at-wills, dailies, or spell points, or whatever, their spells are prepared from their books in advance. They essentially "equip" themselves with a spell list every morning.

This gives them remarkable versatility and adaptability. They can know a wonderful spell for a specific situation. They have the precise tool to accomplish a goal, if they know about the goal far enough in advance. Whatever magic system a wizard is under, I hope they have this element.

What defines a sorcerer for me is that its spells are from itself. It's a mutant. There's a lot of different ways magic could be inside of you -- questionable parentage, bizarre ritual, drank a water elemental as a kid, spent a little too much time with the fey...but whatever mutated the sorcerer, their spells are things that arise from within them.

Because of this, a sorcerer casts its spells easily. It doesn't need the elaborate rituals and grammar of the wizard. Casting magic is reflex for a sorcerer, in-born and automatic. Casting burning hands is as easy as using a fork, and learning fireball might be like learning to use chopsticks. Sorcerers are intimate with magic. A wizard's spell might be highly dictated calligraphy, a Sorcerer's spell is graffiti. It's personal.

I think this comes into play in the idea of having a "locked" spell list. A sorcerer who learns Fireball isn't speaking some arcane grammar, they're just wiggling their fingers and shouting some nonsense and there it is! But because they are their own spellbook, they can't change these spells. Changing that fireball to a lightning bolt would be as impossible as willing yourself to have an extra finger, or growing a second head, or squinting to change your eye color. But since magic is easy for them, they can do it repeatedly. They don't spend up their arcane energies forming careful magical poetry, they freestyle, creating magic out of their own personal reserve, and so they produce much more quantity. They can't grow an extra eye, but they can blink the eyes they have all they want.

I think to reflect that, you might want to give sorcerers an option, at first level, of choosing a "bloodline" that locks them into certain spells as they advance, and maybe giving them more at-will and recharging magic. A sorcerer might not use any daily spells. The bloodline shouldn't physically mutate them, but the spells might -- when a sorcerer learns Fly, maybe they have the option of growing wings. When a sorcerer casts Fireball, maybe they have the option of making it a cone of fire from their mouth. When a sorcerer casts Fear, maybe they have the option of it radiating from them in a burst. Even if they don't show any outward signs of it, though, a sorcerer with a dragon bloodline will have spells that reflect that bloodline (even if it's not literally a bloodline -- maybe the dragon imparted magic onto them).

Wizards can customize their spell list, and might know an infinite variety of spells.

Sorcerers are locked into their spell list, but might cast those handful of spells forever.

That's the big distinction to me. Books vs. Bloodlines. Classical Beethoven vs. old school beat-boxin'. DaVinci vs. Jackson Pollack. Careful, prepared, methodical, and powerful, vs. spontaneous, rapid-fire, chaotic, and liberating.

See, I find myself agreeing with so much of this that I get a bit of mental whiplash when you come to a conclusion so different from where I get from the same starting points.

To me, the difference between wizard magic and sorcerer magic is like the difference between cooking from recipes or cooking from scratch. The wizard's a recipe follower: the instructions have been written down, and as long as they are executed properly they get the expected results. The sorcerer cooks from scratch. They have an intuitive feeling for the results they want to get and how to get there, but as they're not following set rules sometimes you get the inedible and sometimes you get the incredible.

Or it's like the difference between a trained classical musician and an improvisational jazz musician. The classical musician reads the notation and makes their best attempt to follow the composition faithfully. The jazz musician plays around, with the piece, keeping the core of the melody but intentionally deviating from a faithful reproduction.

So the idea that sorcerers would and should have a narrower and more rigid set of magical abilities seems entirely counter-intuitive. The wizard is the structured, ordered, magic user. The sorcerer is the chaotic and fluid one. The word locked should come nowhere near any description of a sorcerer's magical ability, except as part of the word unlocked.

I honestly hope (though I think it's a vain hope) that the final version of the sorcerer doesn't share spells with the wizard's spell list. Sorcerer spells should never look exactly like a wizard spell.

If you ask the recipe-follower and the scratch-cooker to prepare dinner, you'd be very surprised if they produced identical dishes.

If you asked both the classical musician and the improvisational jazz player to play a piece of music, it would be perplexing if they produced performances that you could not readily tell apart.

So why then when a wizard and a sorcerer's attempt to produce the same general effect produce exactly the same effect?

Sure, the wizard might know a spell for every situation, if he's studied enough, and prepared the right ones. But he's rigid: he has to follow the recipes. The arcane is a mystery he studies, not something intuitive and intrinsic. He cannot improvise. If he doesn't know the right spell for this situation, he cannot adapt on the fly.

The sorcerer shouldn't know any spells at all, at least in the sense that wizards know spells. The sorcerer should know what effect he's trying to obtain, but unless it's one he tries for all of the time, he's running on instinct and improvisation to get there. Magic is his lifeblood. To him, it's about what feels like it will work rather than what some old fogey wrote down in a book 300 years ago. There should be no preparation, no locked lists.

A different mechanic to access the same list of abilities (or a subset thereof) does not, to me, justify the existence of a class. The mechanics should fit the flavour, rather than having the flavour be something grafted on to justify a set of mechanics.

Like I said, though, I don't really expect I'll see what I want. It requires far more effort for them to make and balance, and doesn't have that mechanical efficiency of using stuff developed for another class. (I do find it amusing that while 4E is often accused of "samey-ness", its wizard and sorcerer shared no spells at all, while 3E's sorcerer was an alternate method of casting wizard spells masquerading as a class.)
 

I'm A Banana

Potassium-Rich
Maybe there's a way to get it both ways.

Imagine a sorcerer has a more limited, defined spell list: they are who they are, and they can't grow an extra mouth or change their hair color or change what spells they know.

But imagine that a sorcerer, in 3e terms, is better at metamagic than a wizard. Maybe that fireball they toss, if you're a sorcerer, can become a cone of fire, or a line of fire, or a wall of fire, or an iceball or an acidball or something.

Since sorcerers have only a handful of spells, they learn how to use those spells in more versatile ways. A wizard can pick out the specific spell they want, and a sorcerer can use their own spells in innovative ways.

It's an idea, anyway. :)
 

MoonSong

Rules-lawyering drama queen but not a munchkin
You're talking about two different things here. How a character gains power, that's a role-playing issue. That's all fluff. Maybe my wizard learned his spells from the ghost of a red dragon, and has to sacrifice some food every morning to regain spells. Maybe they're brought every morning by imps from the elemental plane. Maybe they were tattooed on his skin by an evil slavemaster, and he spends his life trying to understand what's written on him. Maybe his "spellbook" is his hair, braided with knots and little stones that dictate each spell.

Different concepts, same mechanics, same class.

I think what you want are clearly different mechanics, but those mechanics ought to be disentangled from the fluff, and they should be clear and different. This "like better weapon proficiencies, combat capability and hit points than the wizard" just sounds like a fighter/wizard, and this "a spontanoeus caster needs at least double the number of slots/spellpoints/mana and more mundane abilites (hit points, proficiencies an even attack bonuses)" just sounds broken. You don't mention anything about restrictions, just "spontaneous caster", so presumably he gets all spells a wizard does, per day, and doubled(!), unlimited known spells, more hit points, better weapons, etc etc.

IMC, I rebuilt the sorcerer as a hybrid/gish class. Spontaneous casting, but very limited spell selection, martial weapons, etc, etc. I also use occult (pact/bargaining) magic as a third type, alongside arcane and divine (and psionic, actually. Innate magic probably constitutes a fifth type). Shamans, witches, and cultists all use occult magic.

Number one, stop putting words I didn't say, nobody is asking the sorcerer to know as many spells as a wizard (who can potentially know an unlimited number of them). But double the number of slots isn't that farfetched. every extra slot to the wizard increases his versatility on an exponential way (and it is very hard to measure) while every extra slot to the sorcerer only increases his durability by one fight if any, because, if the sorcerer doesn't know the propper spell for the situation, he is as good as if he didn't had that slot, because he cannot contribute with it.

That is why a sorcerer needs more physical abilities than the wizard, because if the wizard cannot contribute, he just has to rest, but if the sorcerer can't contribute, no amount of resting will change that.

Also Sorcerers suffer from a delayed spell progression (and the dev team has shown they are very eager to keep that part), they need more slots to than the wizard just to keep up, (if you cannot cast fireball, you need to cast three scorching rays to cause a similar amount of damage) if the sorcerer and the wizard have the same amount of slots, the wizard will be way more powerful.

As for what "limited spell selection" means, if you mean the sorcerer will have a low amount of known spells, that is hardly a novelty, But if you mean "will only get to know a very limited subset of the wizard spell list", that part I don't agree. If we are to have a balanced sorcerer and wizard, we will get nowhere by further gimping the sorcerer, the sorcerer needs a bump to be on equal ground than the wizard.

Nobody is asking for a sorcerer in plate holding a Greatsword and casting a huge amount of endlessly varying spells. (but note how that is hardly different from a war cleric, who knows a potentially unlimited number of spells, has tactical felxibility, heavy armor and martial weapon proficiency and nobody seems to think they are broken) We are more like asking for a sorcerer casting his two or three spells known as he wishes, potentially outlasting the wizard save for that pesky recharge spell, while wielding a variety of bows, spears, sickles and maybe even a shorsword or rapier. Heck you are ignoring that sorcerers aren't very likely to get ritual casting and will be using their spells to cover utility too. Twice the slots isn't too much, given the current take on the wizard, that is hardly four slots per spell level.
 

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