How temporary are temporary hit points?

[Alduk]

This was probably answered before, so at least I hope it's an easy question: how long do temporary hit points last?

The PHB only says they end when you lose them or they go away when the effect that caused them ends. But what about, for example, a Vampire's blood drain? If he doesn't lose the extra hit points due to damage, how long do they last? And what is the limit to how many temporary hit points he can have this way?


Both 3.0 and 3.5 answers are welcome and greatly appreciated.

 

[Darklone]

Someone posted lately something about 1 hour.

 

[Kae'Yoss]

Someone posted lately something about 1 hour.

And usually, the ability that grants you those THP states how long they last, AFAIK.

One hour is a good guideline, though.

 

[FrankTrollman]

Temporary Hit Points last as long as they say they do.

Or more importantly - Temporary hit points go away when they say they do. There is no "default time frame" for them to go away in.

So if you cast Vampiric Touch, the hit points go away in an hour. If you cast False Life, the temporary hit points last for many hours. If you cast Aid, the temporary hit points last only a few minutes.

And so on. Often temporary hit points will come from a generic ability - such as "Energy Drain" or "Ability Drain"- which has a duration of 1 hour built in.

If you use Sean K Reynold's crazy-unbalanced Vampire Template level progression - the hit points don't ever go away. It is based on Ability Damage rather than Ability Drain - which means that it doesn't fall into any of the catagories with a built-in duration and doesn't list one of its own.

-Frank

 

[Alduk]

Thanks guys, but could you point me out where is the rule that says THP from Energy and Ability Drain last for 1 hour by default? (I fear the answer will be painfully obvious, but anyway...)

Also, the Savage Progressions' Vampire article was exactly where this doubt came from. Frank, could you explain exactly why you think it's so unbalanced (aside from the infinite THP bug)? I'm curious to know.

 

[FrankTrollman]

It's in the Monster Manual at the back of the book. There's a list of abilities, look at Ability Damage and Energy Drain. It applies to inflicted negative energy levels and permanent ability drain.

Also, the Savage Progressions' Vampire article was exactly where this doubt came from. Frank, could you explain exactly why you think it's so unbalanced (aside from the infinite THP bug)? I'm curious to know.

OK, the most obvious portion of unbalance comes with the low power level of it. I mean, by the time you go through 8 levels without getting a BAB, a skill rank, a hit point, a base save, or a spellcaster level - you just can't do anything to your enemies. You're fairly invulnerable on your home turf, but as an adventurer that almost never applies - and of course the fact that you can't really hope to influence battles at your level makes the entire situation laughable.

But there's also the question of high power. If you only take one level of it, you get hit points for inflicting temporary ability damage - which is outside the scope of the normal monster lists and therefore does not appear to have a listed duration. Taking only one level of the class you can get unlimited hit points - from sucking on summoned monsters.

And of course, it still references the Monster Manual Vampire rules, which are largely copy/pasted from the 3rd edition ones which didn't work. And they still don't work. There's no way to actually put a stake into the heart of a vampire, so when the template says "subject to the normal staking rules" - it's a slap in the face because there aren't any and never have been.

So it's a double edged sword - if you take one level of the class it falls into some weird infinity loops based on poor wording - if you take the whole class the character is monster meat. And of course, it's totally incomprehensible over and over again. Rather than using it - I suggest not using it.

-Frank

 

[Alduk]

It's in the Monster Manual at the back of the book. There's a list of abilities, look at Ability Damage and Energy Drain. It applies to inflicted negative energy levels and permanent ability drain.

I suppose it's the 3.5 MM you're talking about, as you mention the list being at the back of the book; that explains why I couldn't find it. I looked at the entries for drains in the 3.0 MM and DMG, and the 3.5 SRD, but I don't own the 3.5 books - thanks again.

OK, the most obvious portion of unbalance comes with the low power level of it. I mean, by the time you go through 8 levels without getting a BAB, a skill rank, a hit point, a base save, or a spellcaster level - you just can't do anything to your enemies. You're fairly invulnerable on your home turf, but as an adventurer that almost never applies - and of course the fact that you can't really hope to influence battles at your level makes the entire situation laughable.

I agree, as that's something I thought would be addressed in 3.5, but apparently wasn't: vampire characters (a very common choice among players, at least those I know) are still rather unplayable.

But there's also the question of high power. If you only take one level of it, you get hit points for inflicting temporary ability damage - which is outside the scope of the normal monster lists and therefore does not appear to have a listed duration. Taking only one level of the class you can get unlimited hit points - from sucking on summoned monsters.

Which reminds me of something else - how come you can interrupt advancement in the template class and come back as you wish (or, in this case, never)? IMHO it should be necessary to take all levels in the class before advancing as anything else. At least this problem would be solved. Besides, even if you disallow the THP bug, I think it is too advantageous for a player to stop taking levels in the class before you gain the vampiric vulnerabilities.

And of course, it still references the Monster Manual Vampire rules, which are largely copy/pasted from the 3rd edition ones which didn't work. And they still don't work. There's no way to actually put a stake into the heart of a vampire, so when the template says "subject to the normal staking rules" - it's a slap in the face because there aren't any and never have been.

Wouldn't it be possible to stake a vampire while he is helpless in his coffin sanctuary after being brought to 0 HP?

So it's a double edged sword - if you take one level of the class it falls into some weird infinity loops based on poor wording - if you take the whole class the character is monster meat. And of course, it's totally incomprehensible over and over again. Rather than using it - I suggest not using it.

That's a shame, as I found the idea of a character slowly becoming a vampire very interesting. I think I'll try to adapt it as best as I can and see how it will work out - possibly condensing the abilities into less levels, or conceding HD and related benefits along with it.

 

[FrankTrollman]

I suppose it's the 3.5 MM you're talking about, as you mention the list being at the back of the book; that explains why I couldn't find it. I looked at the entries for drains in the 3.0 MM and DMG, and the 3.5 SRD, but I don't own the 3.5 books - thanks again.

Yes, in the 3rd edition rules set Undead Temporary Hit Points seemed to last forever in all cases.

Which reminds me of something else - how come you can interrupt advancement in the template class and come back as you wish (or, in this case, never)? IMHO it should be necessary to take all levels in the class before advancing as anything else. At least this problem would be solved. Besides, even if you disallow the THP bug, I think it is too advantageous for a player to stop taking levels in the class before you gain the vampiric vulnerabilities.

If you were to call a class "balanced" you would want people to be able to walk away at any time. If you need to take all the levels of a class in order for it to be balanced you've essentially admitted that the early levels are overpowered and the late levels are underpowered. If all the levels are appropriately powered - it shouldn't be a problem for someone to take levels of another class at any time.

Wouldn't it be possible to stake a vampire while he is helpless in his coffin sanctuary after being brought to 0 HP?

The only rules in the entire game for death blows are the coup de grace rules. That's where you attempt to stick a weapon into a creature's heart (or whatever).

It requires:

1> The creature be helpless (vampires are not helpless even at zero hit points.

2> The creature be subject to critical hits (vampires are immune to critical hits normally, and further are in gassesous form when at zero hit points and don't even have hearts - even in flavor text at that point).

3> That you do damage to the prospective victim (vampires have DR and are in gasseous form - rendering them immune to the damage of practically any wooden stake).

---

So not only can you not target a vampire with a coup de grace (not helpless), it wouldn't work (not subject to critical hits), and even if you applied the rules to it anyway nothing would happen (DR).

So no. There is no way to stake a vampire. Every single step of the process for stabbing people in the heart is thwarted by one of the vampire's many other abilities.

That's a shame, as I found the idea of a character slowly becoming a vampire very interesting. I think I'll try to adapt it as best as I can and see how it will work out - possibly condensing the abilities into less levels, or conceding HD and related benefits along with it.

I use a very much smaller Undead template which works OK and is LA +0.

Now, if you are undead you get the following adjustments:

* You don't heal normally.
* You suffer penalties of some kind in sunlight (except at Noon).
* You can't see people who are holding their breath.
* You suffer damage slowly and continuously (1 point a day) from drain
and/or decay.
* Your Con goes away completely, and you get hit point modifiers by your
Strength (if corporeal) or Charisma (if incorporeal).
* You become subject to wards against spirits and similar effects.
* You no longer have to breathe or eat.
* You no longer have an attached soul, and ignore spells and effects which
cause negative levels and many curses.
* You suffer damage from normal healing effects, but are healed by negative
energy.
* Your strength goes up by 2 within 5 minutes of Noon and at night, you get
these bonuses whether or not the sun is literally visible.
* Your strength goes down by 2 during the day (except at Noon), you get
these penalties whether or not the sun is literally visible.
* You no longer have a death margin. At zero hit points, you are destroyed.


With Vampires having the special ability to heal themselves up to their level/day by drinking blood (the kind lost from hit point damage rather than con loss or something fancy).

Yes, I use Undead who are subject to critical hits and mind affect effects - it simply causes too many problems if vampires are immune to those things (as seen by their apparent immunity to being staked through the heart).

Then, if people want to gain "vampire powers" they need to take prestige classes that I write for Undead to take.

-Frank

 

[Mephistopheles]

...
I use a very much smaller Undead template which works OK and is LA +0.

Now, if you are undead you get the following adjustments:
...
* You can't see people who are holding their breath.
...
* You no longer have to breathe or eat.
...
-Frank

Does this mean undead can't see other undead in your game?

 

[Kae'Yoss]

Does this mean undead can't see other undead in your game?

And a lot of other types of creatures, too.