D&D 5E How They Should Do Feats

Falling Icicle

Adventurer
That is not a fair comparison at all. Firstly you are comparing two VERY different classes and secondly you are comparing them across editions.

The person I was responding to was doing just that, speaking of "power creep" across editions. If 3rd and 4th edition characters really are more powerful than 2e ones (which is debatable), I don't think feats are to blame. In any case, power is relative. A 3.x character may seem superior to a 2e one on paper, but what matters is the power the characters have relative to the monsters and NPCs they face.

D&DN is striving for a simpler system hence less feats and that makes sense in its evolution given what has come before. It is much better to create a simple system that encourages DMs in a creative way or supplements books to build on said simpler system. And I would expect players of 4E and Pathfinder to enjoy the feat system, hence their lack of complaints ;)

A system can be simple and still offer lots of options. The two are in not mutually exclusive. Besides, those who want a simple game already have the option to ignore feats and take ability score increases instead.

Simpler base system allows for innovation and creativity to mold it into your perfect system. If you do not like the feats as package deals, break them up and allow the characters to gain a mini-feat benefit every second level. It is all there and easy to do, no biggie. The simple core system allows for that and that way you don't create the cookie cutter characters you dislike. Hell, add your own mini-feats that you want from previous editions.

That would be quite a bit of work.

Perhaps for Loremaster, the character needs downtime to learn these additional languages or skills - throw that in as a requirement for PCs if you do not like it. If I started a campaign at 10th level, and one of the characters chose Loremaster - I would let him choose his languages/skills immediately (such a feat is required/valuable) however if a character was leveling up and selected that feat out of the blue without expressing any interest early about languages/skills, well I would impose the requirement of downtime before he could benefit, other DMs might be more lenient and that is great to. But certainly I see the value of such feat.

I think the biggest reason Loremaster bothers me is that it's currently the only way to gain additional skills and languages, aside from multiclassing. I'd rather they just have some other means of learning new skills and languages as part of the core rules that doesn't require feats. It seems like a major oversight to not have a way to learn new skills and languages, and making it a feat seems like a copout to me.
 
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Falling Icicle

Adventurer
This, however, means you're still left with exactly the problem you've decried, except that that prime ability will be maxed that bit sooner. If, as you assert, the ability boosts are just that much more powerful that people must have them, then they'll just swap out their feats at 1st and 3rd to get them.

If you want to prevent people from doing that, or you want to ensure that they have actual feats, you really have to remove the ability to trade them out.

I don't think you quite understand what I am proposing. Everyone would get an ability increase at certain levels. Those ability score increases are on top of feats. So even if you take every feat you can get, you're still getting some ability score improvements. The way it is now, if you take all 4 or 5 or however many feats your class lets you get, you don't any ability score increases at all.
 

Falling Icicle

Adventurer
Just to clarify, while I would prefer to get smaller feats more often, I'm not terribly against the bigger feats they're using now. At least, it's far from a deal-breaker for me. Getting a feats at levels 1, 4, 8, 12, 16 and 20 is good enough. The most important things for me are getting a feat at level 1, having feats based on character level and not class level, and having a way in the basic rules to gain skills and languages without having to spend feats. If they can at least do those three things, I'll be content.
 

Paraxis

Explorer
Make the feats do less, back to the better 3e/4e feats.

All characters get the same number of feats at the same rate, regardless of class or multi-classing.

Each feat gives you a +1 to either a physical or mental ability score based on the feat.

Introduce a new feat that gives +1 to two different ability scores. If your DM chooses not to use feats this is the default, you should still get this every X levels.
 

Paraxis

Explorer
Make the feats do less, back to the better 3e/4e feats.

All characters get the same number of feats at the same rate, regardless of class or multi-classing.

Each feat gives you a +1 to either a physical or mental ability score based on the feat.

Introduce a new feat that gives +1 to two different ability scores. If your DM chooses not to use feats this is the default, you should still get this every X levels.
 

delericho

Legend
I don't think you quite understand what I am proposing. Everyone would get an ability increase at certain levels. Those ability score increases are on top of feats.

No, I understand that.

So even if you take every feat you can get, you're still getting some ability score improvements. The way it is now, if you take all 4 or 5 or however many feats your class lets you get, you don't any ability score increases at all.

Ah, now that's something different from your complaint in the OP. In the OP, your objection was that people would trade away their feats to get ability score increases, and thus not get a feat at all until 8th level. Here, on the other hand, you're objecting to people not taking in the ability score increases.

What you're suggesting does indeed fix the latter problem (if it is indeed a problem), since you're now not allowed to trade away the ability score increases to get more feats. But it does little for the former problem, since players can still choose to give up all their feats.
 

Li Shenron

Legend
Here's how I think they should do feats:
* Characters get a +1 ability score increase at every 4 character levels (4, 8, 12, etc).
* Characters get a feat at 1st level, 3rd level and every 3 character levels thereafter, like 3e (1, 3, 6, 9, etc).
* A character can exhange a feat for a +1 ability score increase.

Breaking it down this way accomplishes several things:
1* People aren't "punished" for taking feats. They still get precious ability score increases.
2* By having smaller feats, players have a much greater ability to customize their characters compared to the bulk package feats they're using now.
3* Feats are still entirely optional. People who hate feats can still trade them for ability score increases; feats are just worth 1 ability point instead of 2.
*4 A character who trades every feat for an ability increase would have +12 total ability points by level 20. That sounds like alot, but that's only a couple more than what most classes in the last playtest packet get. That's a +6 difference in ability modifiers (which is what actually matters) for the cost of taking no feats whatsoever. I think that's fair and not at all game breaking, especially with the ability score cap of 20.

Feats are a more complicated matter than it may seem.

You are suggesting to have feats and ability score increases to be like in 3e, with the additional option of giving up feats for more ability scores (but not viceversa).

I liked how feats worked in 3e, thus I would have no problem with going back to the same system (which was also the case in 5e until summer 2013).

For the general idea of allowing swapping between a feat and a + to ability scores (whether it's one-way like you suggest, or two-ways like the current 5e rules), all that really matters is that in general the two choices are balanced with each other. Obviously for a specific PC there is always going to be more and less convenient choices, but in general terms feats should really be made worth as much the ability score increase. IIRC the current 5e rules grant 2 ability points, thus feats should be designed to be that worth, while in your suggestion they should be worth 1 ability point. Because of this, I think your remark 1* is a bit off: if you feel that people are "punished" when taking feats, to me it simply means feats should just become bigger.

Then size (of both feats and ability increases together, once it's clear that they have to "match") is a design choice. I agree with your point 2*, the current design choice of "big feats" has removed (or decreased) the option of one playstyle element, that of fine-tuning PCs, from the game. This is some sort of flaw, because if feats were small (to the point that each feat always carries ONE benefit only) then the game would be more inclusive. If designers want to preserve the option of feat vs ab.increase swapping (which IMO is a good thing because that too makes the game more inclusive, since nobody HAS to take feats, and nobody HAS to take ability increases), they could still pull this off by using smaller feats that are equivalent to a +1, and then just give them out more often if needed.

Sadly, the real reason for the current choice is really that there are gamers who hate not getting all benefits immediately when increasing even-valued scores, and thus complain about getting +1 only (although IIRC there weren't many complaints during 3e...).

Still, balancing feats against a +1 ability increase instead of a +2 would have plenty of good design benefits:

- it would re-introduce the fine-tuning playstyle for those who want (while those who don't want, will choose ab.increases)
- it would encourage increasing other ability scores instead of your highest one when this is an even number
- it would make a feat (or ab.score increase) more balanced with class/subclass features gained at other levels (currently, IMO they are not... the "feat bump" is typically bigger)
- it would avoid overlapping of feats benefit (e.g. there will be several feats granting you the same proficiency in order to make the real benefit work as intended, but then if you want two archery feats you'll get bow proficiency twice OR you might already have it even when taking the 1st feat; smaller feats as in 3e would have allowed proficiency to be a feat of its own, thus avoiding overlapping i.e. "wasting" part of a feat)
- it would immediately increase the number of feats available, just because we could split e.g. 10 big feats into 20 small feats

[The last point is complicated for me to explain why it makes a difference... let's just say that when I read the current list of feats, almost all of them either make you an expert at a certain combat style or carve a special niche for you, such as dabbling in spells. Either way, they strongly characterize your PC. When writing my playtest feedback (which included the question "are there enough feats for class X", for each class) I realized that except for the Fighter who obviously is naturally drawn towards more combat capabilities, I just had no idea of which feats I could choose for anybody else, unless I wanted it to be a specialist in a fighting style or an oddball. Number of feats available would likely make it easier, but also by splitting them up the choice wouldn't be that dramatic... I wouldn't have to choose to be an bit archery expert or a big 2WF expert, so the choice would also be more relaxed since I'm not so concerned about regretting it later]

But anyway the previous points are more than enough for me to largely overtake the problem of even-numbered ability scores! And it does bother me to realize that is the sole reason that spawned the mega-feats design decision.
 

Falling Icicle

Adventurer
Ah, now that's something different from your complaint in the OP. In the OP, your objection was that people would trade away their feats to get ability score increases, and thus not get a feat at all until 8th level. Here, on the other hand, you're objecting to people not taking in the ability score increases.

What you're suggesting does indeed fix the latter problem (if it is indeed a problem), since you're now not allowed to trade away the ability score increases to get more feats. But it does little for the former problem, since players can still choose to give up all their feats.

I don't have a problem with people trading away their feats for ability score increases if that's what they want to do. I only have a problem with it if people feel like they have to or will have an inferior character. Considering the importance of ability scores in Next, not getting any ability increases is quite a big sacrifice to make.
 

Sadras

Legend
Just to clarify, while I would prefer to get smaller feats more often, I'm not terribly against the bigger feats they're using now. At least, it's far from a deal-breaker for me. Getting a feats at levels 1, 4, 8, 12, 16 and 20 is good enough. The most important things for me are getting a feat at level 1, having feats based on character level and not class level, and having a way in the basic rules to gain skills and languages without having to spend feats. If they can at least do those three things, I'll be content.

Why don't you allow the players at every 2nd character level to either up the ability by +1 or gain a mini-feat as I suggested earlier. That would be a better balance between the two and it is not as much admin as you might believe. And if you must just allow a mini-feat at level 1. Also along with a choice of a mini-feat or a +1 to an ability why don't you throw in the option of language or skill so all the options are on the table (a mini-Loremaster feat if you will)

Also you would not be breaking the balance of the system so you would not have to adjust monsters for the possible "power-creep". What I have suggested solves all your problems - from my point of view.
 
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Kinak

First Post
I really like the way that 5e handles feats, but I really dislike most of the actual feats.

The ability to take an attribute increase if you don't want the complexity, just want a math boost, or run out of feats you want to take is a great design.

But feats that grant multiple abilities, even abilities that build off each other, always feel cobbled together for me. Their big feats that grant one big ability are cool, even when they're not good. Their big feats built out of little feats never hit the cool point for me.

It also feels bad with so many feats granting proficiencies that the people the feats are "for" already have. Even if it's optimal, it still feels like you've screwed up somehow and are wasting resources.

But, really, I think the system could be redeemed very easily with a different list of feats.

Cheers!
Kinak
 

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