We have 2 defenders, 1 leader, and 1 striker in our group. Only one role off of that group.
I think the whining is the problem, not the party mix.
How to challenge a defensive party?
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We have 2 defenders, 1 leader, and 1 striker in our group. Only one role off of that group.
I think the whining is the problem, not the party mix.
ricardo440
First Post
I read the title and immediately thought a mobile battle.
Put a time limit on the battle, make them move.
The baddie is running off with the princess, the ritual will be complete in 10 rounds... whatever it takes to make the PCs move. That way their defensive nature is ruled out. They have to go on offensive.
Put a time limit on the battle, make them move.
The baddie is running off with the princess, the ritual will be complete in 10 rounds... whatever it takes to make the PCs move. That way their defensive nature is ruled out. They have to go on offensive.
lin_fusan
First Post
I would think that Skirmishers would be the best type of creature to throw at a defensive party. They tend to hit high and hard, but have low hit points. Whereas defenders have high hit points and hit low. In a way, they are perfect opposites to each other.
Brutes on the other hand are the monsters' version of defenders (actually, soldiers are, but brutes are a second-best version of defenders...). They are designed to soak a lot of damage, ie. stikers. So a defender versus brute fight would be long and draggy.
This is how I understand the theory. Having only ran one game and played in a few, my experience is not as extensive as other peoples'.
*puts on evil DM hat*
Suggest one gaming session that you're getting tired of DM'ing the next time this happens and ask which of them is going to DM next session. People willing to DM are somewhat scarce so it should probably shut them up.
*takes evil DM hat back off and sits down*
Thanks for all answers!
They get upset and complain a lot when a attack their weakness, but don't bullying.
Two of the player, those who really complain, are DMs too. One of them is running another game at the moment, in which I'm playing, and there things are very easy.
The group is currently at level 12 and in combat their main concern is not being hit; the average AC is 31, and how they have three defenders and your marks, is very difficult the monsters to attack the same PC and really threaten him.
The artillery and skirmishers can be a option, with minions to protect the firsts and aid the seconds to hit and gain CA.
Brutes I'ill need to put a lot of minions to aid them to hit. What I'll do when them die? Putting some more?
Soldier are complicated! They hit more often, but are hard to hit and have a lot of HP. Any sugestion to solve this?
I rarely use traps and hazards, I'll try more o this.
The party is very tactical, always marking the right adversaries, which, as I said, hardly allows me to attack the same character and weakens it. They are always together and protect the leader and each other. Has a lot of HS and healing powers to use each encounter.
Perhaps the real problem is the different expectations. They like not being threatened, and I think the challenge is real fun.
They get upset and complain a lot when a attack their weakness, but don't bullying.
Two of the player, those who really complain, are DMs too. One of them is running another game at the moment, in which I'm playing, and there things are very easy.
The group is currently at level 12 and in combat their main concern is not being hit; the average AC is 31, and how they have three defenders and your marks, is very difficult the monsters to attack the same PC and really threaten him.
The artillery and skirmishers can be a option, with minions to protect the firsts and aid the seconds to hit and gain CA.
Brutes I'ill need to put a lot of minions to aid them to hit. What I'll do when them die? Putting some more?
Soldier are complicated! They hit more often, but are hard to hit and have a lot of HP. Any sugestion to solve this?
I rarely use traps and hazards, I'll try more o this.
The party is very tactical, always marking the right adversaries, which, as I said, hardly allows me to attack the same character and weakens it. They are always together and protect the leader and each other. Has a lot of HS and healing powers to use each encounter.
Perhaps the real problem is the different expectations. They like not being threatened, and I think the challenge is real fun.
the Jester
Legend
My advice boils down to this: if your players whine when they feel threatened, do what it takes to make them whine a whole lot more.
I like this idea, especially if you toss in specific options that can let them go on the offensive if it isn't built into their character. Have items that enhance their attacks - if they are willing to sling their shields and pick them up. (Example: They are fighting enemies afraid of fire. They can grab firebrands in their off-hand and when wielding them, have combat advantage against these enemies.)
Or maybe terrain features - wells of arcane power that enhance their attacks, but drain health. Things like that.
Give them both encouragement to fight aggresively, and the options to do so. It won't work for every fight, but I'm sure you can design some encounters like this that will help encourage more aggresive battles.
The first thing I thought about to oppose this group would be grabber. Paladin are not trained in athletic nor acrobatic, and normally have -2/-4 skill penalty due to armor/shield. They just can't escape. Warlord might not be much better off. The only one that could probably escape from grabber is the swordmage, and he could help others with luring strike and stuff like that if he does have it.
So depending on the level, crocodile (which just chew on the target for automatic damage every turn after 1 hit) or crushgrip constrictor, or Behir/Purple Worm in Paragon. Put some artillery behind this and they just might have a "little" challenge.
Also of note the absense of thievery training in this group. Some traps could be problematic to them/soften them up a little.
Also (evil laugh) rust monster.
So depending on the level, crocodile (which just chew on the target for automatic damage every turn after 1 hit) or crushgrip constrictor, or Behir/Purple Worm in Paragon. Put some artillery behind this and they just might have a "little" challenge.
Also of note the absense of thievery training in this group. Some traps could be problematic to them/soften them up a little.
Also (evil laugh) rust monster.
On the general topic: Use Artillery, Skirmishers, Minions for enemies that can put out lots of damage but die easily. Avoid effects that weaken or otherwise cripple them - focus on effects that damage them or reduce defenses. Auras, dangerous terrains, etc.
Use Lurkers to discourage them from being too defensive - find enemies that hit hard when they strike from hiding. If the party pulls back to heal, rather than throws everything at the foe to lock them down or take them out, the Lurker can just creep away and vanish, and show back up in the next fight. Soon, they'll be ready to throw caution to the wind to take him out of the picture.
When choosing treasure parcels, choose items that are more aggressive in nature. Reckless or Bloodclaw Weapons. Soulfangs. Etc.
Using the more easily-killed enemies should help keep them happy. If they still complain whenever they get damaged... honestly, talk about it! Point out that they walked through a combat and only used up a few surges - is that really the sign of an unfair fight? Do they really only want trivial encounters that never damage them?
If they honestly do... well, not much to be done. But I suspect with it brought directly forward, they won't be as quick to complain, and more willing to accept fights - especially if they feel like they are being effective while doing so.
Use Lurkers to discourage them from being too defensive - find enemies that hit hard when they strike from hiding. If the party pulls back to heal, rather than throws everything at the foe to lock them down or take them out, the Lurker can just creep away and vanish, and show back up in the next fight. Soon, they'll be ready to throw caution to the wind to take him out of the picture.
When choosing treasure parcels, choose items that are more aggressive in nature. Reckless or Bloodclaw Weapons. Soulfangs. Etc.
Using the more easily-killed enemies should help keep them happy. If they still complain whenever they get damaged... honestly, talk about it! Point out that they walked through a combat and only used up a few surges - is that really the sign of an unfair fight? Do they really only want trivial encounters that never damage them?
If they honestly do... well, not much to be done. But I suspect with it brought directly forward, they won't be as quick to complain, and more willing to accept fights - especially if they feel like they are being effective while doing so.
keterys
First Post
Mix it up a bit - some AC attacks so it doesn't marginalize their focus there, but also other attacks and auras. For example, Phoera, Winter Wolves, Chillfire Destroyers, etc.
When you want to exclusively go against AC, consider things like a higher level artillery. Drakkoth Venomshots are +23 to hit, for instance, so AC 31 is totally viable. Even 33, by triggering the mark.
AoE attacks will make them _think_ about their movement and marks, since creatures can just include the marker and some other focus target in blasts and such, so have a fair mix of that.
Don't try to completely remove the effect of their shtick, but do make sure to keep things challenging all the same.
When you want to exclusively go against AC, consider things like a higher level artillery. Drakkoth Venomshots are +23 to hit, for instance, so AC 31 is totally viable. Even 33, by triggering the mark.
AoE attacks will make them _think_ about their movement and marks, since creatures can just include the marker and some other focus target in blasts and such, so have a fair mix of that.
Don't try to completely remove the effect of their shtick, but do make sure to keep things challenging all the same.
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