D&D (2024) How to import "race" flavor into D&D 2024 inclusively

[Vikingkingq]

It's not a zero sum thing, I talked about specifis too.. Go back and read what I actually saidAll or nearly all of those examples negatively impact players too

I did, but your arguments aren't that persuasive. Feats can be fun, but so can ASI - numbers go up is a big motivating factor for players. I think the issue is more is the mix between the two.

Also, I don't agree that the GM has "little freedom to use actually reward players" with attribute-boosting items. As a player, I'm not going to turn down an Ioun stone or a Manual of Gainful Exercise or whatever just because ASI exist - those are still impactful and fun magical items to get.

 

[tetrasodium]

I did, but your arguments aren't that persuasive. Feats can be fun, but so can ASI - numbers go up is a big motivating factor for players. I think the issue is more is the mix between the two.

Also, I don't agree that the GM has "little freedom to use actually reward players" with attribute-boosting items. As a player, I'm not going to turn down an Ioun stone or a Manual of Gainful Exercise or whatever just because ASI exist - those are still impactful and fun magical items to get.

You are picking and choosing what you want to read. The monster math does not account for magic items, it's a simple fact not subject to subjectivity.

By making ability scores matter like 3.x players face strong pressure to minmaxing the perfect attribute distribution &rush it to 20, the comparison there is to 2e style attributes where the breakpoint for +1/-1 was at 15 & 6 so players faced dramatically less pressure to minmax those attributes. ... again this is simple math. For the point of players facing strong pressure it a subjective thing like "can be fun" is an entirely meaningless statement when it could be said about anything.

I don't think you understand the difference between a +2 TOME and a +attrib item either. One is an almost never seen item that mainly only exists for players to ogle in the magic items section. Comparably the other is a reasonably available item when the system doesn't try to design against magic items.

 

[Vikingkingq]

You are picking and choosing what you want to read. The monster math does not account for magic items, it's a simple fact not subject to subjectivity.

I'm not arguing that point.

By making ability scores matter like 3.x players face strong pressure to minmaxing the perfect attribute distribution &rush it to 20, the comparison there is to 2e style attributes where the breakpoint for +1/-1 was at 15 & 6 so players faced dramatically less pressure to minmax those attributes. ... again this is simple math. For the point of players facing strong pressure it a subjective thing like "can be fun" is an entirely meaningless statement when it could be said about anything.

I don't think it's just a question of breakpoint math; 2e didn't have feats, so while it had less pressure in one direction (although I don't think it was as loose as you think - I remember the pressure to get 18/XX Strength on a Fighter), it didn't have the countervailing pressure of choosing between an ASI and a Feat either.

And I don't think player preferences are meaningless, here. Some players really like the customizability of the Feat system as a way to achieve their vision for a given character; other players get analysis paralysis and prefer "number go up" instead. Having a system that gives them the choice of how to progress their character is superior design to one that gives them no choice but reliance on DMMart.

I don't think you understand the difference between a +2 TOME and a +attrib item either. One is an almost never seen item that mainly only exists for players to ogle in the magic items section. Comparably the other is a reasonably available item when the system doesn't try to design against magic items.

I did mention the Ioun stone, maybe you should try not picking and choosing what you read. But if you don't like the Tome, how about a Belt of Giant Strength? Did that stop existing?

 

[Yaarel]

The 2024 Orc needs at least three cultures: "advanced" city, rural, and nomadic hunter-gatherer.


Currently, the Forgotten Realms Orc lacks cultural diversity. It is a "all tribes look the same" situation.

To culturally diversify the Orcs for 2024, the Forgotten Realms default setting can import and adapt Orc cultures from other D&D settings.


The Forgotten Realms Many Arrows tribe and its region can be one culture.


Eberron has three main cultures.
• subterranean martial culture (Jhorash'tar) (comparable to Forgotten Realms Orc)
• primal culture (Shadow Marches) (druidic cultures)
• monotheistic culture (Ghaash'kala of the Silver Flame)
• not counted as a separate Orc culture are the many Orcs who are citizens of multispecies city cultures.


Critical Role (planet Exandria) has the best cultural diversity for Orcs.
• Yios culture − civilization of sages
• Bladegarden culture − serving as military of Dwendalian Empire
• Othe culture − monastic tranquility
• Boroftkrah culture − rural agriculture and hunting
• Xhrhasian culture − nomadic hunter-gatherers


For D&D 2024, something like at least three distinctive Non-Evil Orc cultures
• Nomadic − families, hunter-gatherers with relations with Ogres, primal
• Rural − tribes, farming, hunting, often in militaries of other Humanoids, divine
• City − advanced civilization, sages, sciences, tranquility, Monks, arcane

Commonly, Orc communities have a prominent martial source. Psionic is rare but known and often correlating with adrenaline rushes.

The rural tribes tend toward divine magic, and clerical leaders, with Orcish versions of polytheism, as well as a monotheism viewing positive energy as the divine immanence. This monotheism and enlightenment philosophy prevails among the Orc city culture, but the cities are diverse and individualistic with other faiths present as well.

The rage-centered and expansionist cult, Eye of Gruumsh, seeks to influence any Orc culture as well as other Humanoid cultures, and achieves power over a few locales here and there. Orcish cultures tend to view the cult as terrorists.

The necromantic cult of Orcus has some influence in the certain Orc and Ogre families of Nomadic tribes, as well as a few enthusiastic sages of Orc cities.

 

[Horwath]

You are picking and choosing what you want to read. The monster math does not account for magic items, it's a simple fact not subject to subjectivity.

By making ability scores matter like 3.x players face strong pressure to minmaxing the perfect attribute distribution &rush it to 20, the comparison there is to 2e style attributes where the breakpoint for +1/-1 was at 15 & 6 so players faced dramatically less pressure to minmax those attributes. ... again this is simple math. For the point of players facing strong pressure it a subjective thing like "can be fun" is an entirely meaningless statement when it could be said about anything.

I don't think you understand the difference between a +2 TOME and a +attrib item either. One is an almost never seen item that mainly only exists for players to ogle in the magic items section. Comparably the other is a reasonably available item when the system doesn't try to design against magic items.

few solutions:

1. Cap abilities to 18

2. allow all(or most) feats at 1st level background choice. Then you can take +1 ASI from half feat, +2 ASI from background/race/whatever, pointbuy/array score of 15 and you have your max 18 at 1st level. then with any potential ASIs you can boost secondary/tertiary stat.

3. All feats come with floating +1 ASI so you do not need to plan your character 12 levels in advance.

 

[tessarji]

Ideally, there are eight abilities, not six. Add Athletics and Perception. Then Strength equals size only. Dexterity equals manual dexterity only. And Athletics equals mobility only. Str-Con, Dex-Ath, Int-Per, Cha-Wis. Something like this is possible in the 2024 DMs Guide. But it would only be practicable if the DM can refer to the Athletics ability while looking at a Monster Manual statblock.

You are describing the TSR SAGA attributes model exactly, unclear whether you already were aware of that. I also prefer the SAGA names in some cases, like 'Presence' over Charisma.

In my opinion, an eight point attributes model like this has always been a better fit for most fantasy narrative games, and PF2 if I understand correctly already elevates Perception to be most of the way to a primary stat.

Neither of these games succeed at decoupling attributes from boring and obvious optimizations based on primary class, I wish some genius would publish their system that does and then "race" flavor could be freed to be actual flavor.

 

[tetrasodium]

few solutions:

1. Cap abilities to 18

2. allow all(or most) feats at 1st level background choice. Then you can take +1 ASI from half feat, +2 ASI from background/race/whatever, pointbuy/array score of 15 and you have your max 18 at 1st level. then with any potential ASIs you can boost secondary/tertiary stat.

3. All feats come with floating +1 ASI so you do not need to plan your character 12 levels in advance.

Going back to the 18 cap makes a lot of sense, changing that to 20 was just munchkinism. IME players who started with 5e are under the impression that they must have a 20 and will strongly push back against anything being changed to stand in the way of that. It's also less than compelling for the gm to "nerf" PCs like that just so they can give some back through items if that was your intent.


I'm not even sure why you mentioned allowing what sounds like a wider selection of feats at first level than just the first level feats. We don't really have enough info on feats to know if the rework and level restrictions will do anything in practice or not but winding that back seems like a sure fire why to ensure it will not.

I think #3 is already planned but it provides a secondary bonus you didn't mention. That bonus is slightly reducing the gap between players who do/don't spend the first two on a +2 since there is a smaller gap between Alice's 16->18->20+>20+feat & Bob's 16->17+feat->18+feat->19+feat->20+feat.

I wouldn't mind seeing wotc lower the starting 14/15+2 down a bit but figure there is zero chance of even seeing a half step there like seeing an alternate reduced pool pointbuy. Their design seems too welded to the idea that magic items are not needed and that the GM does not need to consider their impact for any such explained official option the gm could choose without homebrew for any such reduction

 

[Yaarel]

Regarding the ability score improvements. I am happy to cap the scores by tier.

Tier: Maximum Score
0 (Background): 12
1−4: 14
5−8: 16
9−12: 18
13−16: 20
17−20: 22
21−24 (Epic): 24

Other players might find this difficult because of the lower scores for much of the campaign, and the eshewing of the 4d6 random method.

If scores cap at 14 during the lowest tier (1−4), it is probably ok to automatically gain two +2 score improvements at each new tier. Then the feats that capstone each tier are actually just for feats.


My main concern is. I want reallife-possible scores during the low tiers, but "epic" scores during the epic tiers. There is a continuum between these.

I am getting into how the high tiers (13−16, 17−20) represent the superhero genre.

 

[Yaarel]

You are describing the TSR SAGA attributes model exactly, unclear whether you already were aware of that. I also prefer the SAGA names in some cases, like 'Presence' over Charisma.

In my opinion, an eight point attributes model like this has always been a better fit for most fantasy narrative games, and PF2 if I understand correctly already elevates Perception to be most of the way to a primary stat.

Neither of these games succeed at decoupling attributes from boring and obvious optimizations based on primary class, I wish some genius would publish their system that does and then "race" flavor could be freed to be actual flavor.

I didnt know about TSR SAGA, I will look into it. My eight abilities derive from D&D 4e and 5e, looking closely at the mechanics in play and determining the non-overlapping abilities from bottom up, that are about equally balanced to each other. I started with four abilities, but found the eight to balance surprisingly well, and be more practicable to implement. In these eight abilities, Wisdom is willpower, Perception is perception, and Intelligence includes both reason and intuition. Charisma is every social skill including "insight" for reading people. Athletics is mobility including everything relating Athletics and Acrobatics. Str is brute force. Dex is manual dexterity with cautious precision. Str-Con, Dex-Ath, Int-Per, Cha-Wis.

 

[tessarji]

I didnt know about TSR SAGA, I will look into it. My eight abilities derive from D&D 4e and 5e, looking closely at the mechanics in play and determining the non-overlapping abilities from bottom up, that are about equally balanced to each other. I started with four abilities, but found the eight to balance surprisingly well, and be more practicable to implement. In these eight abilities, Wisdom is willpower, Perception is perception, and Intelligence includes both reason and intuition. Charisma is every social skill including "insight" for reading people. Athletics is mobility including everything relating Athletics and Acrobatics. Str is brute force. Dex is manual dexterity with cautious precision. Str-Con, Dex-Ath, Int-Per, Cha-Wis.

Sure, check here: https://dragonlancenexus.com/saga-basic-rules/

Also interesting is how they associate these abilities in the model as active/defensive pairs for the main combat systems - melee combat, missle combat, sorcery magic, and mystic magic.

I liked much about the system when I experimented with it in the 90s, but there were many elements far less elegant in the design - the cards specifically, a high concept that worked pretty awfully in practice.