D&D (2024) How to simply fix Ranger in 2024.


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ECMO3

Legend
What people forget:

If you have to switch hunter's mark over and over again, that means your targets are dying over and over again. Which means the fight was not that hard to begin with or you just marked the wrong guys.

That is not how it works in play and if it is a hard fight you are usually using a better spell IME as Rangers have a ton of great concentration combat spells.

It is pretty simple to figure out. If you are fighting 6+ fights a day, most fights average 3-4 rounds of combat. So assume 4 rounds and take the number of enemies and divide by 4. That is the number of enemies on average that will go down every round.

So against 3 enemies for example, you divide by 4 and you 0.75. That is the average number of times you will need to move a hunter's Mark per round to keep getting the damage bonus, assuming your party focuses fire.

IME in play, the number of rounds you get to use it without casting/moving it is less than the number of rounds you need to use a bonus action for it, and they are not really even close. Now a lot of times you do forgo moving it to use a different bonus action or the marked person is still alive but you either need to attack another enemy (someone else is near death or the guy you marked teleported away or something) or you need to do something else on that turn rather than attacking. But in any case it is relatively uncommon in play that the Mark is already sitting on the enemy you attack for all your attacks.

Basically, if you are going to use HM or Hex you need to assume that is going to tie up your bonus action most rounds if you want to get the damage buff. If your build relies on that damage you should minimize other abilities that require your bonus.

In the 2014 rules you could get around this a bit with a Sorcerer multiclass and twin spell (more common on a Warlock-Hex than a Ranger-HM), but you can't do that in the new rules.
 
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What about replacing Hunter's Mark with Favored Foe from Tasha's Cauldron of Everything or Hunter's Target from Level Up?

Hunter’s Target​

You can use your bonus action to focus your attention on a specific enemy. Choose a creature you can see within 90 feet to mark as your quarry. For 1 hour, you are focused on this creature. You gain a +1 bonus to weapon attack rolls against the creature, and your weapon attacks against it deal an extra 1d6 damage. In addition, you have advantage on Perception and Survival checks you make to find it. If the creature drops to 0 hit points before the hour ends, you can use a bonus action to mark a new quarry.

Once you use this feature, you can’t use it again until you finish a short or long rest .

Both Favored Foe and Hunter's Target are non-spells that do require concentration, so you could keep the 13th and 17th level Ranger features as is. But you wouldn't need to wrap the class around a single spell. And with Favored Foe, at least, you get to see damage go up as the character levels up. You wouldn't have to wait until 20th (if you ever get there) for a bump in damage.
 

That is not how it works in play and if it is a hard fight you are usually using a better spell IME as Rangers have a ton of great concentration combat spells.
It is. Maybe not in yours.
It is pretty simple to figure out. If you are fighting 6+ fights a day, most fights average 3-4 rounds of combat. So assume 4 rounds and take the number of enemies and divide by 4. That is the number of enemies on average that will go down every round.
You are a math genius.
So against 3 enemies for example, you divide by 4 and you 0.75. That is the average number of times you will need to move a hunter's Mark per round to keep getting the damage bonus, assuming your party focuses fire.
Which is only true of you focus fire mooks. Not every fight is a 4 beat one after the other.
IME in play, the number of rounds you get to use it without casting/moving it is less than the number of rounds you need to use a bonus action for it, and they are not really even close. Now a lot of times you do forgo moving it to use a different bonus action or the marked person is still alive but you either need to attack another enemy (someone else is near death or the guy you marked teleported away or something) or you need to do something else on that turn rather than attacking. But in any case it is relatively uncommon in play that the Mark is already sitting on the enemy you attack for all your attacks.
Maybe in your games.
Basically, if you are going to use HM or Hex you need to assume that is going to tie up your bonus action most rounds if you want to get the damage buff.
Not a generally valid assumption.
If your build relies on that damage you should minimize other abilities that require your bonus.
Still maybe not a bad idea. Good that a two weapon build can get away not using bonus actions.
In the 2014 rules you could get around this a bit with a Sorcerer multiclass and twin spell (more common on a Warlock-Hex than a Ranger-HM), but you can't do that in the new rules.
Yeah. Because in 2014, you did not use your bonus action for twf a lot...

I think your assumptions are bad. Maybe good for your game, but not as a general assumption.

Many games have fights against one big monster with some minions.
Let the wizard blow the minions to shreds or use hunter's mark on the main target and follow up with conjure barrage to clear the room from minions.

If you can afford always going 4 vs 1 while neglecting the other monsters, what are the other 3 doing? Standing around doing nothing?
I guess they are also going 4 vs 1 on a single player...
 

What about replacing Hunter's Mark with Favored Foe from Tasha's Cauldron of Everything or Hunter's Target from Level Up?

Hunter’s Target​

You can use your bonus action to focus your attention on a specific enemy. Choose a creature you can see within 90 feet to mark as your quarry. For 1 hour, you are focused on this creature. You gain a +1 bonus to weapon attack rolls against the creature, and your weapon attacks against it deal an extra 1d6 damage. In addition, you have advantage on Perception and Survival checks you make to find it. If the creature drops to 0 hit points before the hour ends, you can use a bonus action to mark a new quarry.

Once you use this feature, you can’t use it again until you finish a short or long rest .

Both Favored Foe and Hunter's Target are non-spells that do require concentration, so you could keep the 13th and 17th level Ranger features as is. But you wouldn't need to wrap the class around a single spell. And with Favored Foe, at least, you get to see damage go up as the character levels up. You wouldn't have to wait until 20th (if you ever get there) for a bump in damage.
What exactly is the benefit of replicating a spell with a non spell that is a spell in disguise.
 

ECMO3

Legend
It is. Maybe not in yours.

Not in any game I played and I am currently playing 4 games a week with 4 different groups worldwide and Ranger is the most common class I play.


You are a math genius.

It is simple math.

Which is only true of you focus fire mooks. Not every fight is a 4 beat one after the other.

No it is not, but the math holds true regardless. 10 enemies, 1 enemy, unless your fights are abnormally long the math is the math.

How many enemies do you fight in the average encounter? This is easy to calculate.

If your Ranger picks a foe and shoots and ignores the enemy that the rest of the party is targeting then yes it will last a lot longer on that foe, but then the party as a whole is getting negative value out of Hunter's Mark. The mechanics rely heavily on action economy and eliminating enemy actions is better than the extra damage you will get by targeting an enemy by yourself just to get the Hunter's Mark extra damage.

Maybe in your games.

Yes in the 4 games a week I play with different groups wordlwide and in the all the streaming games online I watched and in the games the you tube optimizers have talked about.

I am sure there are a small amount of games where Rangers can sit Hunter's MArk on a target regularly and get damage from it, but I think those games represent a very small minority.

Not a generally valid assumption.

It is a very valid assumption at the vast majority of tables.

Still maybe not a bad idea. Good that a two weapon build can get away not using bonus actions.

Sure, but a Beastmaster build or a Drakewarden build or a Horizon Walker build can't. Nor can builds that multiclass Rogue or Monk or Paladin or builds that play Goblins or Earth Genasi or Eladrins or Shaddar Kai ......

Yes some builds can do this though.

Yeah. Because in 2014, you did not use your bonus action for twf a lot...

Most of my Rangers I played as a player did not use it for TWF a whole lot actually and they never used Hunter's Mark because they never had it on their spell list past level 3. They did occasionally have Hex.

On builds that did use HM or Hex having Twin spell makes a big difference on how often you can use your bonus action though.


I think your assumptions are bad. Maybe good for your game, but not as a general assumption.

That is ok. You can think that, but I can back mine up with a ton of experience with Rangers as both a player and a DM.

I think your statement is the one that is wrong as a general assumption and the various videos of optimizers support this.

Further the math doesn't lie, so tell me how many rounds and how many enemies on average and we can figure this out real easy.

Many games have fights against one big monster with some minions.

Yeah and if you concentrate on the minions you have to move your mark a lot (like every round).

If you concentrate on the big bad your attacks really do nothing for action economy until the minions are down, if you concentrate on the minions (as you should) you move your mark a lot.

Keep in mind damage is just a number and is only indirectly related to effectiveness.

Let the wizard blow the minions to shreds or use hunter's mark on the main target and follow up with conjure barrage to clear the room from minions.

Ok so Conjure Barrage and you are not using your Hunter's Mark. The whol premise is if you want to use your MArk.

The Wizard blasts the minions to near death and then you can attack them and kill them (and not use your Mark) or attack the big bad to get that extra damage.

If you can afford always going 4 vs 1 while neglecting the other monsters, what are the other 3 doing? Standing around doing nothing?
I guess they are also going 4 vs 1 on a single player...

The math is the math and it does not matter what the party size is. Whether you party is 1 PC or 10 PCs if you are going to kill 4 enemies in 4 rounds you are going to have one dying every round.
 

Not in any game I played and I am currently playing 4 games a week with 4 different groups worldwide and Ranger is the most common class I play.




It is simple math.



No it is not, but the math holds true regardless. 10 enemies, 1 enemy, unless your fights are abnormally long the math is the math.

How many enemies do you fight in the average encounter? This is easy to calculate.

If your Ranger picks a foe and shoots and ignores the enemy that the rest of the party is targeting then yes it will last a lot longer on that foe, but then the party as a whole is getting negative value out of Hunter's Mark. The mechanics rely heavily on action economy and eliminating enemy actions is better than the extra damage you will get by targeting an enemy by yourself just to get the Hunter's Mark extra damage.



Yes in the 4 games a week I play with different groups wordlwide and in the all the streaming games online I watched and in the games the you tube optimizers have talked about.
There is the mistake.
I am sure there are a small amount of games where Rangers can sit Hunter's MArk on a target regularly and get damage from it, but I think those games represent a very small minority.



It is a very valid assumption at the vast majority of tables.



Sure, but a Beastmaster build or a Drakewarden build or a Horizon Walker build can't. Nor can builds that multiclass Rogue or Monk or Paladin or builds that play Goblins or Earth Genasi or Eladrins or Shaddar Kai ......

Yes some builds can do this though.



Most of my Rangers I played as a player did not use it for TWF a whole lot actually and they never used Hunter's Mark because they never had it on their spell list past level 3. They did occasionally have Hex.
Ok.
On builds that did use HM or Hex having Twin spell makes a big difference on how often you can use your bonus action though.


That is ok. You can think that, but I can back mine up with a ton of experience with Rangers as both a player and a DM.

I think your statement is the one that is wrong as a general assumption and the various videos of optimizers support this.

Further the math doesn't lie, so tell me how many rounds and how many enemies on average and we can figure this out real easy.



Yeah and if you concentrate on the minions you have to move your mark a lot (like every round).
No. Minions are killed with area effects.
If you concentrate on the big bad your attacks really do nothing for action economy until the minions are down, if you concentrate on the minions (as you should) you move your mark a lot.
See above.
Keep in mind damage is just a number and is only indirectly related to effectiveness.
You are the one arguing that favoured foe is better although the way you use it you can just leave it away as the difference is neglegible over your adventuring day.
Ok so Conjure Barrage and you are not using your Hunter's Mark. The whol premise is if you want to use your MArk.
Nope. You use it. But correctly. Mark the big baddie.
The Wizard blasts the minions to near death and then you can attack them and kill them (and not use your Mark) or attack the big bad to get that extra damage.
Nope. Better use conjure barrage than hitting them.
The math is the math and it does not matter what the party size is.
That is not how math works. 4 vs 1 kills the one guy faster than 2 vs 1.
Focua firing and not focus firing make big differences.
And it is easier to focus fire on ranged attacks which conveniently usually leave your bonus action free.
Whether you party is 1 PC or 10 PCs if you are going to kill 4 enemies in 4 rounds you are going to have one dying every round.
You are really mixing up average and actual kills.

Assume 4 foes with 40 hp. Assume PCs with 10 damage.

In a 1 vs 1 it take 4 rounds to kill one enemy.

Non focus fire means no matter how big the party, every foe lives 4 rounds. Then all die at once. No HM shifting.

If you all focus one enemy, every round one foe dies.

Usually focus firing one enemy is nearly impossible. Maybe some 2 vs 2s. So after 2 rounds one enemy dies and after 2 round s the next one. So only using HM shift every other round.
 

ECMO3

Legend
There is the mistake.

What mistake?

I think my experience is far more common than yours. That is not a mistake.

Ok.

No. Minions are killed with area effects.

Maybe, maybe not but typically not. They are drained with AOEs.

Give me a hard encounter with many minions that are actually "killed" with an AOE. You claim this happens, provide an example, it is pretty easy. Maybe a bunch of Goblins guarding a Lich would do it!

You are the one arguing that favoured foe is better although the way you use it you can just leave it away as the difference is neglegible over your adventuring day.

This is not relevant to the bit of text you quoted. Sounds like you are going to a different thread to bring up something that is not relevant to the discussion we are having here.

If you want to take about Favored Foe vs Hunters Mark, I will happily do that, but make a statement and I will answer with details and if applicable statistics and number. However bringing up unrelated stuff from other threads without any sort of context is not relevant to the discussion we are having here.

Nope. You use it. But correctly. Mark the big baddie.

If you cast conjure Barrage you do not get any damage from Hunter's Mark for that round. This is a fact unless you have a spell that gives you another action and even in that case it is a small amount (3.5 damage on a hit).

Nope. Better use conjure barrage than hitting them.'

To say again what I said earlier (note the underlined):

"IME in play, the number of rounds you get to use it without casting/moving it is less than the number of rounds you need to use a bonus action for it, and they are not really even close. Now a lot of times you do forgo moving it to use a different bonus action or the marked person is still alive but you either need to attack another enemy (someone else is near death or the guy you marked teleported away or something) or you need to do something else on that turn rather than attacking. But in any case it is relatively uncommon in play that the Mark is already sitting on the enemy you attack for all your attacks."

If you cast Conjure Barrage on that turn you are not using Hunter's Mark that turn.


That is not how math works. 4 vs 1 kills the one guy faster than 2 vs 1

Not if the encounter is balanced at the same level it doesn't.

4 3rd level characters against one Young Green Dragon does not end faster than two 3rd level characters against one Red Dragon Wyrmling even though they are both "deadly" encounters.

You don't understand how the math works.


Focua firing and not focus firing make big differences.

Yes it does and as a Ranger using Hunter's Mark you will often be faced with a decision - get the most out of Hunter's Mark or Focus Fire.

And it is easier to focus fire on ranged attacks which conveniently usually leave your bonus action free.

Assuming you do not misty step or are playing a race or have a feat that uses a bonus action or have a subclass that uses a bonus action, or have a multiclass that uses a bonus action .... oh and you did not go with crossbow expert either for your ranged attacks (i.e. the highest damage ranged build).

Yes if all of those things are true you will not lose much by using your bonus action to move the mark every turn.

You are really mixing up average and actual kills.

Assume 4 foes with 40 hp. Assume PCs with 10 damage.

This is a poor assumption. The only time PCs have 10 damage is like 1st and maybe 2nd level (but not really even 2nd level). Your damage assumptions have to scale with both level and with expendable resources since more resources will be used in harder fights.

You mentioned Conjure Barrage. That will average 17 damage per enemy hit. Assuming 2.5 enemies in the AOE on average that is over 42 damage from one action in one round!

In a 1 vs 1 it take 4 rounds to kill one enemy.

My 1st level party of 5 wiped out 4 bandits (11 hps each) and one bandit leader (65 hps) in 3.5 rounds last Thursday.

The same party of 5 1st level characters wiped out an Ogre-like Monster (59 hps I am guessing) in less than two rounds. It never even got an attack!

Non focus fire means no matter how big the party, every foe lives 4 rounds. Then all die at once. No HM shifting.

Ok the math is off, but the idea is good. So focused fire over 4 rounds the enemy gets 10 turns (4+3+2+1). If you split, it still ends in 4 rounds but the enemy gets 14 turns (4+4+4+2) .... this assumes 2 enemies die on the last round before their turn.

So the enemy will have done 40% more damage to the party in the second case during that fight. So sure you got all your HM damage in and the part is worse off for it.


Usually focus firing one enemy is nearly impossible. Maybe some 2 vs 2s. So after 2 rounds one enemy dies and after 2 round s the next one. So only using HM shift every other round.

Yes it is often situational and can be difficult. I would not say impossible though, and I think in general it is easier to focus fire than it is to attack the specific enemy you already have marked and alive.

More to the point though the exact same factors that would prevent you from focusing fire on a single enemy also often prevent you from attacking the one enemy who is marked.
 
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ECMO3

Legend
I think you are wrong. Maybe just totally different bubbles we play in.

The math does not change with your bubble.

This video discusses the problems with HM and bonus action from about 1:40 to 3:00 and talks about the bigger HM issues at around 14:00-16:00.

 
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