How to stop Tumblers?

[Nail]

That is merely WotC's "plausible" explanation of what Attacks of Opportunity are. It's fluff.

Be that as it may (or may not ), the question still is:

Who provokes the AoO?

.....'cause it ain't the guy who's threatening an area, and it never depends on an opposed check......

 

[Nail]

I think it comes down to this: in Karinsdad's and similar games <that don't play Tumble as presented in the PH>, don't bother taking Tumble, since it is now useless.

Fixed that for you.

...after all, there's no need to assume things about a poster who you dissagree with.

 

[Michael Silverbane]

Who provokes the AoO?

Not the guy who is asleep on the floor, who certainly hasn't let his guard down, while he was... you know... asleep on the floor... during the fight.

Later
silver

 

[Moon-Lancer]

5) Not true. First level PCs can Tumble. It only requires one rank.

6) I have no idea what this even means.

7) True, but not relevant. This is like saying that casting spells is limited because only spell casters can do it. WT?

8) The difficulty of knocking someone down can increase dramatically based on circumstance, plus Tumbling gets synergy bonuses that Overrun does not.

9) This is not true either. Where do you get this? Plus, I've already listed the movement penalty as an advantage for Overrun. You want to list it a second time???

10) Not true either. I've already listed that Tumble is prevented if movement is restricted.


So far, none of what you wrote here is worth anything in the discussion.

5: 1 rank doesn’t make it any easier. It takes a 25 (do move through a enemies square). that’s around 12 or so ranks and a normal character with a roll of 10. so its only really plausible at level 9 or 10.

6: look in any 3.5 book, and you will not find a single magic item that increases the tumble skill, unless it increases dex across the board. Its very hard to get a high tumble. The dc should not be taken lightly. I only know of a few ways to increase tumble and they are all 3.0

7: seven is relevant because only a few classes can do it effectively. A much smaller group then classes that require a high strength to be effective.

8: tumble doesn’t knock someone down, irrelevant. You get synergy because your spending skill ranks, like most skills.

9: a botched edit job on my part.

10: what does acp have to do with movement restriction? acp doest apply in a bull rush. It does with tumble.

 

[hong]

Mang, just wait till Karin finds out how her dad nerfed her!

 

[KarinsDad]

Not the guy who is asleep on the floor, who certainly hasn't let his guard down, while he was... you know... asleep on the floor... during the fight.

Zing!

Or the stunned guy who cannot hold his weapon, but can keep up his guard.

Or the dazed guy who cannot do anything, but can keep up his guard.

Etc., etc., etc.

 

[Hypersmurf]

You won't change Karinsdad's mind...

Please refrain from putting words in other posters' mouths.

-Hyp.
(Moderator)

 

[KarinsDad]

5: 1 rank doesn’t make it any easier. It takes a 25 (do move through a enemies square). that’s around 12 or so ranks and a normal character with a roll of 10. so its only really plausible at level 9 or 10.

Dex 18, 5 ranks in Tumble, 5 ranks in Jump, that's +11 at level two. 85% chance of success for 2 of the 3 combat uses of Tumble, 35% for the third at second level. That sounds potentially plausible at much lower level than 9 or 10.

But the odds of knocking someone down (at least against many challenging monsters) tends to lower as levels increase and tends to be less than 85% at second level (assuming the defender even attempts to block).

The biggest Fighter in the world cannot knock down the wimpiest Wizard if the Wizard does not allow him to and the Fighters does not take the Improved Overrun feat.

Low level Monks or Rogues can Tumble circles around anyone.

6: look in any 3.5 book, and you will not find a single magic item that increases the tumble skill, unless it increases dex across the board. Its very hard to get a high tumble. The dc should not be taken lightly. I only know of a few ways to increase tumble and they are all 3.0

How many magic items improve Overrun?

7: seven is relevant because only a few classes can do it effectively. A much smaller group then classes that require a high strength to be effective.

Who has Tumble as a class skill (Bards, Monks, and Rogues out of core) is totally nonsequitor to the discussion. Who gets the ability does not matter? The utility of the ability and the game mechanics is what is under discussion.

This is so backwards.

Claiming that Tumble is at a disadvantage because only some classes can easily get it (when all classes can get it) is like claiming that Disintegrate is at a disadvantage because 11 of the 13 core classes cannot get it.

The vast majority of classes can rarely use Overrun effectively either.

8: tumble doesn’t knock someone down, irrelevant. You get synergy because your spending skill ranks, like most skills.

As for your original #8, saying that Tumble has negative modifiers for circumstances is nothing special. Overrun too has negative modifiers (size, magic, number of legs, etc.).

9: a botched edit job on my part.

10: what does acp have to do with movement restriction? acp doest apply in a bull rush. It does with tumble.

PCs who take tumble tend to take armor that does not have an ACP (due to the number of skills ACP affects).

0, -1 or -2 for light armor, -2 for mythral breastplate. 0 for Monks. Easily offset by the +2 Synergy bonus for Jump.

Bonuses and penalties are not worth mentioning unless one ability has a lot of them and the other has virtually none. Overrun can have a -4 penalty for Size. It also is not worth mentioning.

Your #8 and *10 are the same. Negative modifiers can exist for Tumble. So? So can positive modifiers. And negative modifiers exist for Overrun as well.

This is a wash (and so is number 8).

 

[Slaved]

Dex 18, 5 ranks in Tumble, 5 ranks in Jump, that's +11 at level two. 85% chance of success for 2 of the 3 combat uses of Tumble, 35% for the third at second level.

Against a single opponent if you have enough movement and no armor check penalty or other problems such as terrain.

 

[Legildur]

Against a single opponent if you have enough movement and no armor check penalty or other problems such as terrain.

So? KD is only talking about a 2nd level character, hardly a high-powered example that is claimed is required to make use of the ability.