D&D General How to work with players who wont accept any setbacks/defeat?

[Yora]

I personally would tell players plainly that apparently the kind of campaigns I run isn't for them. Nothing I can do to appease them other than running a game in which all the PCs breeze through everything, and I'm not going to commit any time and effort into that.

 

[p_johnston]

So what do you currently do when those situations come up? Do you kill the PC? Do the players seem to resent that?

@p_johnston What were the circumstances surrounding this "your potion ingredients or your life" scenario?

I ask because one of the reasons I've seen players behave this way is due to the DM trying to subvert their agency.

From one of my own experiences, the DM contrived an encounter where he intended that our PCs would be captured. When, despite an absolutely overwhelmingly designed encounter, we actually managed to persevere, he contrived to have the enemy threaten an incapacitated PC with a poison he made up on the spot that instantly killed with no saving throw (this was 3e, where every poison had a DC, even if it was impossibly high). We refused to surrender, he killed the PC, and the players basically just rebelled and declared the campaign over.

I'm not saying you are doing anything like that.

However, as I said, I have seen that kind of behavior as a reaction to heavy handed plot hammering.

If that's not the case, then you may simply need to follow through. After all, death is one form of defeat, and if the player chooses that route then validate their agency and follow through.

To clarify we werent actually playing 5e. We were in 13th age in which the flight mechanic is at any time you can declare you flee and you suffer a campaign loss (something bad happens). They wanted to run so i told them what the campaign loss would be (potion ingredients). They were unwilling to accept this so everyone else fled into the sewers and the last guy got captured by the dragon.

Also this was just the most recent example that led me to seek help. There are a fair few other examples that i could also list.

P.s. also the fight the were fleeing was a semi random encounter caused by them choosing to harvest bone marrow (long story) at noon in the middle of a city moments after a very loud public fight. Also i personally think they could have won it just would have been hard.

 

[p_johnston]

So what do you currently do when those situations come up? Do you kill the PC? Do the players seem to resent that?

Some players have no issue with their PC dying for a cause, even a seemingly trivial one. If that’s your players then I wouldn’t worry. If they take issue then there’s a number of reasons it could be. Figure out the reason then an appropriate solution should come easily enough.

So the problem is no ones happy. They arent happy with the characters dieing. Im not happy with having to work in new PCs or having campaigns end.

 

[p_johnston]

Are these teenagers by chance?

Naw all mid to late 20s.

 

[RuinousPowers]

Players don't like to run or give up equipment they have had to work for or earn. If you ever find yourself thinking "after the party surrenders...", just stop yourself and rethink the scenario.

 

[p_johnston]

Take the hint and stop trying to defeat or hand out setbacks.

IF you are unwilling to do this, let someone else DM.

Don't try to 'teach lessons' or.

I don't try and defeat. If I wanted the characters dead I could kill them. I run hard combats because I find them more satisfying and fun as both a DM and Player. I never force them into combats they can't win and try to very clearly earmark when a foe is much to powerful for them up to the point of straight up telling them. If I find I have made a fight that they have no reasonable way to win because I messed up I'll happily admit it and walk it back.
What I try to do is have an alternative to "welp you lost everyones dead. New campaign."

 

[Vaalingrade]

I run hard combats because I find them more satisfying and fun as both a DM and Player.

Thing is, they seem not to.

They appear not to want to be presented with fights they can't win or potential opponents so powerful you have to explain to them.

It's the thing a lot of people do when they sandbox: they put in the horrible life-ender monster in a place and then say 'don't go there', when... maybe it's better to not have it there at all, eh?

 

[Ancalagon]

Me, I'd just run it neutrally and let the chips - and, sometimes, characters - fall where they may.

I think making a show of rolling in the open. Let the dice decide. If the players escape, then ask for a little break to think of what happens next. Maybe the players will get away with it, and that will be very memorable. And if they don't, well they all saw the dice.

 

[Quickleaf]

This came to a head last session when the party was more willing to have a character effectively die rather then give up the ingredients to make 2 potions they had gathered that session. This is just one example of many that has come up.

When I hear this, I wonder what has primed these players to respond so disproportionately that they cling to a small victory and escalate the stakes to be life or death?

In my gaming experience, that kind of behavior doesn't happen in isolation. My hunch is there has got to be some story there – either something from your game table, or their experience at other game tables, or something going on beyond what you've already shared.

For instance, if the game's stakes were set extremely high right out the gate or if a PC unexpectedly died without having a session 0 discussion about your style, that could lead to this sort of behavior.

I dunno, I'd want to know a heck of a lot more before giving you any advice.

 

[Charlaquin]

Discuss it with them as if they were reasonable adults. Try to have an open discussion and ask leading questions, like "last session you ____ and it meant your PC died. What do you think should have happened?" Try to have an open discussion and avoid any kind of blame game. If that doesn't work and they'd rather die than admit defeat then they die.

Rinse and repeat all steps until you have a resolution.

Seriously. This should have been the very first suggestion.