D&D General How welcome would a wordy and somewhat philosophical treatment of alignment be here? [Thread resolved, thank you.]

Celebrim

Legend
So not to go on too long but I think AD&D accidentally facilitated this kind of thing.

I never had the problem with it in AD&D that others report, in part because I tended to play with people similar to myself. It was only when I found myself in a mixed group with some self-declared Satanists (at age 13), that I ever had the first alignment problems. For example, simply declaring that I was playing a LG character, was met with voiced disgust on the grounds that LG people were simply stupid and their morals just got in the way of winning. CE was the best alignment because you were free to do whatever you wanted, and having a LG player in the party got in the way of that. That fellowship didn't last long for a lot of reasons, but it led me to the rule as a DM that players had to play characters of compatible alignments.

I do see why applying the strict letter of the AD&D rules would lead to problems in many groups, and there is a ton of advise on campaign management in the 1e DMG that seems highly adversarial and which I never really understood until I ran an open gaming table at a local store that approximated what I think Gygax's experience as a DM was like - running games for 12 players at a time, different players every week, running games for strangers and near strangers, etc. Gygax writes the DMG with a bunch of advice that assumes that chaotic environment is more or less normal, and in that context the seemingly weird rules about having designated callers, training, alignment, and never giving the players an inch start to make sense.

I think alignment in those early games was something like alignment in Nethack, and it made sense in that context. Gygax was tracking alignment loosely based on actions that were explicitly against your alignment - saying using poison as a 'lawful' in either system or withholding treasure from your fellow party members. As in Nethack, there is an intended loose balance between the mechanical advantages of different alignments, and a player that is attempting to garner the advantages and avoid the penalties of multiple alignments is basically cheating, and no cries of "but I'm just playing my character" or appeals to thepian virtues overturns that fundamental assessment.

In practice, the hard lever of class or level loss isn't one that Gygax needed to pull often, because he had the more subtle lever of increased training time and costs that would take a character out of the game for an extended period and force the player to roll up a replacement starting at level 1. But that lever wasn't one that fit with the usual way tables that had a small number of close friends and lacked Gygax's rigorous dungeon and delve format played. Training time and costs were the one rule I never saw enforced by any table I played with.

Ah, interesting! That's slightly different to what I've usually seen go wrong with CN, which was more along the lines of "I'm CN so I should act completely randomly and point-blank refuse to go along with any plan, even if I agree with it and just randomly help the enemy or attack friendly NPCs or wander off", which I think it's fair to blame in part on the wording/description of CN in 2E in some sourcebooks.

Much of your discussion makes it seem like you came into D&D late in 1e or in 2e, and 2e had a very different write up of the alignments than classic Gygax. I don't think any writer - TSR or WotC - has done a really good job of explaining what the alignments mean, and I think the situation has been made worse by the fact that each writer has subtly disagreed with the others. Worse, each writer has had their own biases that introduced subtle incoherence into the description, starting with Gygax's tendency based on his background to both treat Lawful Good as 'more good' and 'Chaotic Evil' as 'more evil', and yet at the same time present rather scathing critiques of lawful good.

Or in short, I think of alignment as being one of those things that can go very right and can lead to a lot of cool play, but in the hands of many DMs left with little or even poor guidance - like the guy who claimed Lawful Evil is a contradiction (because in some canonical writer's write ups it actually is!) - tends to go very badly.
 

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Celebrim

Legend
The central thesis at my table is that the DM doesn't tell you what your character would intrinsically be "not good" for doing. After all, a Lawful Good missionary whose creed includes slaying and drowning nonbelievers is still Lawful Good because of their conception of their actions according to what they see as Lawful Good.

This is an inherent contradiction, since something is lawful if and only if an outside observer can agree it is lawful. What the missionary thinks of his own actions, if he is Lawful, is irrelevant by lawful's own standards.

In my opinion, it's not exactly my place to pass judgement on what "Chaotic Good" means to an individual PC.

Conversely, that may well be true, since something is chaotic if and only if the individual defines meaning for themselves. (Although whether Good is that wide open to interpretation is another discussion.)
 

generic

On that metempsychosis tweak
This is an inherent contradiction, since something is lawful if and only if an outside observer can agree it is lawful. What the missionary thinks of his own actions, if he is Lawful, is irrelevant by lawful's own standards.
Not necessarily. In my campaigns, at least, "Lawful" has taken the meaning "has a strict personal code which is followed", rather than what Chaotic beings have, which is more "no plan other than instinctual moral judgements on an irregular basis".

It depends on your definition of "Lawful".

For example, a crusader may be Lawful Good, because of an inherent religious doctrine which is adhered to, but Robin Hood may only be Chaotic Good, given that Robin Hood does not live a life based on strict systems, such as chastity, faith, and personal doctrine.
 

Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
I never had the problem with it in AD&D that others report, in part because I tended to play with people similar to myself. It was only when I found myself in a mixed group with some self-declared Satanists (at age 13), that I ever had the first alignment problems.
LOL the laVeyan Satanists of back when were very lawful in D&D terms. There were elements of support for what I call excessive territorialism and punishment for transgressions even. Of course i wasnt 13 when I read of it and was perhaps not pasting on my own expectations as much.
 
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generic

On that metempsychosis tweak
Massive ummmm rabbit hole perhaps.. alignment always has been.
Indeed, can someone be lawful in that they believe that they are lawful, but be unable to be recognized as lawful, even though they define themselves as lawful?

I daresay it all comes back to religion.
 

generic

On that metempsychosis tweak
@Celebrim we might actually agree more than you think, as one point is that, overall, is that it varies by campaign, the efficacy and importance of alignment that it.

As for those who say that it's a straightjacket in terms of roleplaying, that only seems to be so when the DM makes it so.
 



tetrasodium

Legend
Supporter
Epic
I've seen alignment detract from a lot of tables. Not all of them I was sitting at.

Have you ever seen a table benefit from it?
Not d&d's alignment because it's tied to absolute morality rather than things that free willed mortals would find relevant. The star wars calm & controlled detached light vrs impassioned fear/anger/hatred dark side sometimes.. Rifts style uhh hard to summarize alignment... yes very much because it's based on how players & their character would probably act at the table after choosing a course of action. I don't believe I've ever seen d&d's alignment improve the game for anyone but the stereotype lawfulAnal paladin & that jerk who thinks kender should be a core race again.
 

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