D&D 5E How Would this Surprise Example Play Out?

[Arial Black]

In the game I ran, a dagger of warning was the first magic item that the party found, and thereafter I didn't bother rolling Stealth checks.

Thirteen levels later, the group tried to sneak up on a Titan, and they each made individual checks. The paladin rolled low, since she was at -1 and had disadvantage, so the Titan was not surprised.

Even with a Weapon of Warning I would still roll opposed Stealth/Perception (or whatever pairing was appropriate to the situation). Just because your 'spider-sense' pinged, this doesn't mean that you know where or what the enemies are.

If the WoW wielder rolls higher initiative, because he is not surprised then he can move and act before the ambushers, but he still hasn't detected the ambushers themselves. He can move to where he thinks he is safe, cast buff or detect spells, take the Dodge action, take the Ready action and belt the first enemy that comes into view, whatever. But he can't attack enemies he hasn't detected yet, and being 'un-surprised' does not mean he has detected any specific creature.

Being 'immune to surprise' =/= 'always succeed in perception checks'.

 

[The Crimson Binome]

Even with a Weapon of Warning I would still roll opposed Stealth/Perception (or whatever pairing was appropriate to the situation). Just because your 'spider-sense' pinged, this doesn't mean that you know where or what the enemies are.

It does mean that nobody can hide from you unless they have cover, though, and there was never a situation where someone was about to attack and could maintain cover while doing so. If they were waiting in ambush to attack when someone got close, then the weapon wouldn't have gone off until they made the decision to attack - i.e. they had already left cover to do so.

If a goblin was waiting in ambush, and your weapon warned you of this before it actually jumped out, then the warning might cause you to stop in your tracks before you got close enough for the goblin to do so. Or if it alerted you to a potentially dangerous creature, and the warning caused you to take actions which frightened it into attacking, then the warning would be the only reason the weapon went off in the first place. In order to avoid that sort of precognition paradox, I ruled that it didn't go off until the enemy had actually decided to attack. As written, the item is kind of vague on specifics, so I went as far as possible to make it user-friendly to the wielder.

 

[Arial Black]

It does mean that nobody can hide from you unless they have cover, though, and there was never a situation where someone was about to attack and could maintain cover while doing so. If they were waiting in ambush to attack when someone got close, then the weapon wouldn't have gone off until they made the decision to attack - i.e. they had already left cover to do so.

If a goblin was waiting in ambush, and your weapon warned you of this before it actually jumped out, then the warning might cause you to stop in your tracks before you got close enough for the goblin to do so. Or if it alerted you to a potentially dangerous creature, and the warning caused you to take actions which frightened it into attacking, then the warning would be the only reason the weapon went off in the first place. In order to avoid that sort of precognition paradox, I ruled that it didn't go off until the enemy had actually decided to attack. As written, the item is kind of vague on specifics, so I went as far as possible to make it user-friendly to the wielder.

For me, if a (goblin) is hidden in ambush, then he still counts as unseen when he leans around the corner and looses his arrow. If the (magically un-surprised) target chose an action that was not observable or not suspicious, then the goblin has no reason to change his mind about attacking.

Also, 'cover' can be one-way. If you are hiding in the tree branches, you can easily have cover re: being hidden from your target, but you can still observe and shoot at your target from that position. You are still hidden for that first shot, but you are no longer hidden after that first shot resolves because that attack is what gave you away. That's why the Skulker feat is valuable for snipers.

Always bear in mind that 'immunity to surprise' ONLY means that you can move and act on your first turn and can use reactions normally. It does not mean that you succeed in any Perception check! If you run combat such that this only makes sense via precognition, then this is because you are choosing to run it this way. You can just as easily choose to run it such that precognition is not needed to conceptualise the situation.

 

[The Crimson Binome]

For me, if a (goblin) is hidden in ambush, then he still counts as unseen when he leans around the corner and looses his arrow.

That is your interpretation, with which I strongly disagree. If the goblin can see the PC, then an alert PC can see the goblin. The only way to hide from someone without being completely obscured is for you to catch them off-guard, when they aren't specifically looking in all directions for an ambush (as is always the case in combat).

 

[Arial Black]

That is your interpretation, with which I strongly disagree. If the goblin can see the PC, then an alert PC can see the goblin. The only way to hide from someone without being completely obscured is for you to catch them off-guard, when they aren't specifically looking in all directions for an ambush (as is always the case in combat).

Then we fundamentally disagree.

For me, a leopard can be perfectly camouflaged in the trees, calmly observing the PCs through the leaves, without the PCs automatically seeing the leopard!

 

[Helldritch]

I would simply narrate an ambush.
Goblins go first. They had the time to set it up. They took 20 that should beat up most passive perceptions.

One exception to that.
If the players sent out a scout. Said scout will use an active perception check vs a stealth roll for the goblins (with advantage). They are waiting for the big group after all and the scout is usualy in stealth mode (I know I would be).

The goblins will roll perception vs scout's stealth roll (that I will make myself)

4 outcomes are possible:
The scout spots the goblins. Tough luck for the goblins.

The scout fails to spot the goblins. Tough luck for the players. The goblins get to decide if they wait for the main body or if they attack now. The scout might die as they will attack him/her with advantage.

Both the scout and the goblins fail to see each other. The scout is way ahead when the group gets ambushed.

Both the scout and the goblins notice each other. The fight is on. The scout maybe alone but he can get away or fight and wait for help to arrive.

And if you want to know. Yes that set up works both ways. Players can make ambush too.

 

[The Crimson Binome]

Then we fundamentally disagree.

For me, a leopard can be perfectly camouflaged in the trees, calmly observing the PCs through the leaves, without the PCs automatically seeing the leopard!

Yeah, but if the PCs know that something is about to ambush them, then they're going to stop and look around until they find it. Unless you want to start getting into the action economy of looking around, you can save a lot of time and energy by just skipping to the part where they notice it. By my reading, that rule - that you can't hide from an alert target who can see you - is just a way of cutting to the chase. All of the stuff about DM discretion letting you hide from someone if they're looking in another direction is stuff that applies outside of combat, when they aren't paying attention.

Of course, those rules are also vague and subject to interpretation. If you want to interpret that to say that rogues can dance around in your blind spot unless you pass a check, then you could certainly make an argument to that effect. I just don't know why you would want to, given that the alternative is much faster to play and less prone to shenanigans.

On the third hand, Rules As Written say that a polar bear can't hide in a blizzard. If the DM wanted to rule that camouflage will allow you to hide without being behind cover, then I'm almost certain that there's support for that elsewhere in the books, and it would also cover the leopard scenario.

 

[Arial Black]

Yeah, but if the PCs know that something is about to ambush them, then they're going to stop and look around until they find it. Unless you want to start getting into the action economy of looking around, you can save a lot of time and energy by just skipping to the part where they notice it. By my reading, that rule - that you can't hide from an alert target who can see you - is just a way of cutting to the chase. All of the stuff about DM discretion letting you hide from someone if they're looking in another direction is stuff that applies outside of combat, when they aren't paying attention.

If you are being observed then you can't hide while they are watching you hide! This is not the same as the very act of looking around for possible hidden foes meaning that you automatically spot them!

Of course, those rules are also vague and subject to interpretation. If you want to interpret that to say that rogues can dance around in your blind spot unless you pass a check, then you could certainly make an argument to that effect. I just don't know why you would want to, given that the alternative is much faster to play and less prone to shenanigans.

On the third hand, Rules As Written say that a polar bear can't hide in a blizzard. If the DM wanted to rule that camouflage will allow you to hide without being behind cover, then I'm almost certain that there's support for that elsewhere in the books, and it would also cover the leopard scenario.

I think that it's the other way around: if the leopard is hidden before combat begins (in the trees, looking out), then when the PCs hove into view then the leopard does not suddenly become visible just because initiative is rolled. It would take a Perception/Stealth contest, and my money's on the leopard.

Replace the leopard with a goblin archer: the goblin is hidden before the PCs arrive, and he can see the PCs through the leaves of the tree in which he's hiding.

When the goblin initiates combat (by shooting an arrow from hiding), the normal 5E combat rules kick in. The DM determines surprise. In this case, the goblin knows about the PCs; whether the PCs know about the goblin depends on opposed Perception/Stealth checks. Let's say the PCs fail to notice the goblin.

This means that the PCs are surprised at the start of combat, unless one or more PCs are immune to surprise. If this is the case, then all it means is that those un-surprised PCs can move and act on their first turn; it doesn't mean that they have seen the goblin!

Initiative is rolled for all of them (surprised or not). If an un-surprised PC goes before the goblin, he can move and act normally but he still hasn't seen the goblin. He "get's a bad feeling about this" and takes, say, the Dodge action. This doesn't mean he starts cartwheeling around, it just means that he is ready to dodge at the slightest provocation. Remember that you can only Dodge versus attacks from attackers you can see (check out the Dodge description in the PHB) so it may be of limited use.

In this case there is nothing for the goblin to see that would put him off shooting the arrow he already declared he was shooting. The actual shooting of the arrow is what begins the combat rules, but the rules allow targets a chance to avoid ambushes like this simply by using the combat rules.

 

[The Crimson Binome]

If you are being observed then you can't hide while they are watching you hide! This is not the same as the very act of looking around for possible hidden foes meaning that you automatically spot them!

It's not necessarily the same. It could be the same. The former is one subset of the situations described by the latter. Whether the latter is true is subject to interpretation by the DM, and you could make the case either way. I'm taking the interpretation that it is true, because it makes the game run faster and is more player-friendly, and because it makes more intuitive sense to me.

If you have two people in a 10' x 10' room, you just can't hide. It's flat-out impossible. Even if you want to wait in ambush of the other person entering the room, there's simply nothing to hide behind. Once they enter the room, you've been spotted... unless they aren't expecting you (so they aren't paying attention all around them, so you might be able to sneak behind them immediately as they enter). But once they know you're there, there's no point in trying to hide, because they can definitely see you. You can always see something in front of you if there's nothing in the way, and it doesn't take an action or anything to change the direction you're looking.

Now replace that 10' x 10' room with a 20' x 20' forest clearing, and the same logic holds. If you're in the clearing, and there's nothing to hide behind, then they can see you. They just can. You're not behind anything, so there's nothing to stop them from seeing you. (Unless you want to bring up an exception for camouflage for something.)

Now add some waist-high tree stumps that you can crouch behind. When you're down behind one, and it provides cover such that you are not visible, then the other person can't see you... but they might be able to hear you and so you get a Stealth check to hide. If you pop up, though, then you no longer have cover and you are immediately visible to them because there's nothing stopping them from seeing what's right in front of them. If you want to sneak around behind them and then pop up, where you think they won't be looking, then I think there are advanced rules for facing or whatever in the DMG. The basic rules in the PHB don't deal with facing in combat, and leaves it up to DM discretion outside of combat.

 

[Arial Black]

It's not necessarily the same. It could be the same. The former is one subset of the situations described by the latter. Whether the latter is true is subject to interpretation by the DM, and you could make the case either way. I'm taking the interpretation that it is true, because it makes the game run faster and is more player-friendly, and because it makes more intuitive sense to me.

If you have two people in a 10' x 10' room, you just can't hide. It's flat-out impossible. Even if you want to wait in ambush of the other person entering the room, there's simply nothing to hide behind. Once they enter the room, you've been spotted... unless they aren't expecting you (so they aren't paying attention all around them, so you might be able to sneak behind them immediately as they enter). But once they know you're there, there's no point in trying to hide, because they can definitely see you. You can always see something in front of you if there's nothing in the way, and it doesn't take an action or anything to change the direction you're looking.

Now replace that 10' x 10' room with a 20' x 20' forest clearing, and the same logic holds. If you're in the clearing, and there's nothing to hide behind, then they can see you. They just can. You're not behind anything, so there's nothing to stop them from seeing you. (Unless you want to bring up an exception for camouflage for something.)

Now add some waist-high tree stumps that you can crouch behind. When you're down behind one, and it provides cover such that you are not visible, then the other person can't see you... but they might be able to hear you and so you get a Stealth check to hide. If you pop up, though, then you no longer have cover and you are immediately visible to them because there's nothing stopping them from seeing what's right in front of them. If you want to sneak around behind them and then pop up, where you think they won't be looking, then I think there are advanced rules for facing or whatever in the DMG. The basic rules in the PHB don't deal with facing in combat, and leaves it up to DM discretion outside of combat.

If the archer was hiding in the trees surrounding this clearing then he can be hidden while still being able to see creatures in the clearing. He can shoot from hidden, and that shot will resolve as a shot from hidden; he's shooting through the foliage rather than running into the open clearing and then shooting!

After this shot then he has given away his position and is no longer hidden, barring Skulker feat or suchlike.