How would you aducate this anti-dragon tactic?

[Plane Sailing]

My ruling?

Firstly it is clear when something is readying an action (DMG p16-17) which will alert most dragons (OK, not stupid whites ). Since the dragon sees the guy readying a spell, he might immediately go for an off the wall tactic to surprise them (or use one of his longest ranged attacks if he has them available - Melfs Acid Arrow would be highly functional in this kind of situation for instance)

Secondly, I'd allow a spellcraft check to identify a spell cast as a readied action - after all, it is slower to cast that than a quickened spell, and you still get to use spellcraft to identify a quickened spell. If successful the dragon knows what is coming and evades the wall.

Thirdly I'd allow a dragon with blindsense to detect a wall of force appearing in front of it and attempt evasive action, which I'd simplify to a Reflex ST for no damage if the dragon could wingover or hover.

All else failing I'd inflict damage on the dragon

Cheers

 

[Diirk]

Well, it wouldn't need a reflex save to avoid flying into it if it had wingover; its a free action, and any movement on the dragons part is in its own turn anyway, so where's the issue ?

 

[KarinsDad]

Firstly it is clear when something is readying an action (DMG p16-17) which will alert most dragons (OK, not stupid whites ). Since the dragon sees the guy readying a spell, he might immediately go for an off the wall tactic to surprise them

What if the Wizard goes invisible first? Blindsense does not allow the dragon to see him, only sense him and then only within 60 feet.

The party does have a round to prepare as per the original post ("medium-level party travelling outdoors, they see a dragon at distance (probably at least 500'), the key here is they are not suprised.").

Secondly, I'd allow a spellcraft check to identify a spell cast as a readied action - after all, it is slower to cast that than a quickened spell, and you still get to use spellcraft to identify a quickened spell. If successful the dragon knows what is coming and evades the wall.

Thirdly I'd allow a dragon with blindsense to detect a wall of force appearing in front of it and attempt evasive action, which I'd simplify to a Reflex ST for no damage if the dragon could wingover or hover.

With Hover, the dragon cannot evade the wall. Hover takes a move action to stop and hover and the dragon does not have the time.


On the Wingover issue, not all Dragons have the feat. In fact, most would not.


But, for 1D6 of damage per 50 feet movement (if that is what you are using) that is lowered by Damage Reduction, I would not give the Dragon any sort of save against a 5th level spell. Most of this damage would bounce off of most dragons. Either the Dragon has Wingover and avoids the wall, or it does not and hits the wall.

 

[terrainmonkey]

first of all, the party should not have seen the dragon at all, as he should have been invisible. 2nd, the dragon has blindsense, and other abilities that are constantly on that detect magic and see arcane energy. so, the dragon wouldn't even give them a chance to get off a spell before he attacked. you have to understand the dragon's age. most dragons are not stupid when they see some group of adventuring yahoos. they will see them before the party sees the dragon, then he will go invisible, then he will cast silence 15' radius, and then go hover over the party and flame breath. then he'll come down on the party thief or cleric and tear them apart, then move on to the wizard so he doesn't have to worry about the spellcaster even thinking wall of force. dragons are not going to fall for the "flying into the wall of force trick". besides, even if he did get the wall up, and if the dragon did actually hit the wall, no damage would be done to the dragon and the wall would fall over or break apart. this is a lame, non damaging tactic, and not something an intelligent mage would do. there are far more damaging spells than a wall of force.

 

[Aaron2]

If the dragon hits the wall, how much damage would it do? (as per falling damage?)

I'm curious why everyone assumes the wall will do the same damage as fallling. I don't see anything in the spell description implying that the wall is as hard as hitting the ground and not somehow squishy. If it's "force" then it would be more of a pushing action than an impact. I'd rule that some of the damage would be nonlethal. But that's just me.

Why is the dragon flying so low to the ground? Has it seen the party yet?


Aaron

 

[azmodean]

think this idea must have been tried by a lot of mages in the history of the world (along with the 'invisible fighter with the set spear' trick).

That's why smart dragons always start high up and swoop down on people rather than skimming along the ground to get close.

This is part of the reason I used wall of force instead of wall of iron or wall of stone, wall of force does not have to be anchored to anything, in fact, it cannot touch anything when created.

And the other benefit is for the people who say the dragon would end up using it for cover, WoF is dismissable.

Now for a really nasty thought, what if you created the wall edge-on to the dragon? Easier to dodge, but if it didn't...

Hover clearly could not be used in this situation, as it takes a move action, wingover is unclear. Let's put it this way, if a readied action were triggered against a PC fighter while he was charging, would you allow him to cancel mid-charge and perorm a free action? That is what is being suggested that the dragon could do with wingover.

In answer to terrainmonkey: The dragon may have invisibility up, the party (at least one person) could easily have see invisibility up. Walls of force specifically do not "fall over" or "break apart" except when subjected to mere physical force. The entire point of this tactic is this attack does not allow SR (possibly no save either) and has interesting tactical properties. Wether it does damage or not, it stops the dragon in it's tracks well in range of most of the parties attacks. In the best case the dragon ends up prone on the ground within 40' of the party with the entire party delaying to act when it hits the ground, and it has taken some damage too.

Squishy wall of force? It is open to interpretation I guess, IMC it is unyeilding and would do damage if you ran into it..

 

[KarinsDad]

first of all, the party should not have seen the dragon at all, as he should have been invisible. 2nd, the dragon has blindsense, and other abilities that are constantly on that detect magic and see arcane energy. so, the dragon wouldn't even give them a chance to get off a spell before he attacked. you have to understand the dragon's age. most dragons are not stupid when they see some group of adventuring yahoos. they will see them before the party sees the dragon, then he will go invisible, then he will cast silence 15' radius, and then go hover over the party and flame breath. then he'll come down on the party thief or cleric and tear them apart, then move on to the wizard so he doesn't have to worry about the spellcaster even thinking wall of force. dragons are not going to fall for the "flying into the wall of force trick". besides, even if he did get the wall up, and if the dragon did actually hit the wall, no damage would be done to the dragon and the wall would fall over or break apart. this is a lame, non damaging tactic, and not something an intelligent mage would do. there are far more damaging spells than a wall of force.

You must be reading a different starting scenario in the original post and a different set of rules books than the rest of us. The reason an intelligent mage would do this is to 1) temporarily limit the mobility of the Dragon and 2) avoid the Spell Resistance of the Dragon. I think it is a very good tactic. Maybe the people who play "intelligent wizards" in your game only throw damaging spells.

It is unlikely that Good Dragons would attack travelers. Hence, we are typically talking an Evil Dragon here. An Evil Dragon usable against a mid-level party would be maybe an Adult Black (int 12), a Young Adult Blue (int 14), an Adult Green (int 16), a Juvenile Red (int 14), or an Adult White (int 10).

Although smart, none of these dragons will typically be as intelligent as a party Wizard at that level. So, they should not be tactical geniuses in combat.

Also, this type of dragon will be young and cocky. They are not as smart as older wyrms who have figured out that you can get killed attacking adventurers. You don't attack them smart, you just do not attack them at all (or use minions).

Hence, younger cockier dragons will not go in all prepped. They will rely on their massive combat abilities and might cast a defensive spell or two. Who knows, they may need to save some of their spells for possible later encounters in the day. Only when they determine that they may be outmatched or minimally at least challenged will they thrown in the kitchen sink.

Plus, blindsense only has a range of 60 feet. It does not mean that a dragon will automatically spot his enemies at 500 feet (the original scenario) before they spot him. That's why we roll Spot Checks in the game.

If I had a DM who had 10 to 16 Int Dragons ALWAYS spotting us first and ALWAYS having just the right combination of powers to defeat us (most Dragons should not have Clerical spells at all, let alone Silence; Invisibility only lasts 1 minute per level, so WHY would a Dragon just happen to be flying around with it one?, etc.), I would go look for a new DM. An encounter should be a challenge, but the enemies should not be totally prepped, nearly omnipotent and genius level intelligent like you made your dragon out to be.

Finally, Walls of Force never break and never fall over. I would also get a new DM if his Dragon slammed into a Wall of Force at 300 feet per round and took no damage. If anything is lame, it is a hidebound DM who cannot reasonably adapt to an unusual situation and reward players for coming up with interesting non-conventional tactics.


PS. It is reasonable, however, to make any damage from the wall non-lethal damage.

 

[Mahali]

Do you get a save versus falling damage?

How is this different?

Because the rules say you get a saving throw in this type of situation. An area spell is used to cause an effect. In this case the effect is trying to stop a dragon and hopefully cause damage.

I beleive it's in the DMG or magic section of PHB.

 

[KarinsDad]

Because the rules say you get a saving throw in this type of situation. An area spell is used to cause an effect. In this case the effect is trying to stop a dragon and hopefully cause damage.

I beleive it's in the DMG or magic section of PHB.

The rules do not state any such thing.

The rules state that the DM CAN give a saving throw under unusual circumstances, but the DM does not have to do that. It depends on the reasonableness of the situation and the DM.


Readied Actions, especially spells, have the ability to change the outcome of a given character's action without saving throws a lot.

Examples:

1) Psion readies an action to do a Concussion Blast against a foe. Concussion Blast has no to hit roll, no saving throw, no spell (or power) resistance. Boom, opponent will be wounded (unless he has a defense against it) and might be dead or unconscious.

2) Wizard casts an area effect Darkness spell. Boom, opponent might not be able to see.

3) Wizard casts a Daylight spell. Boom, Orc is dazzled, no save.

4) Wizard casts Cloudkill. All 3rd and lower HD creatures are dead, no save.

5) Wizard casts Antimagic Field. All spells in radius go away, no save. Any targets in the radius do not get a saving throw to "jump out of the area".


DND does not have momentum rules (or turning ratio rules), but it does have a readied action, the Wingover feat and maneuverability rules for Flight. Using these rules, a DM is totally justified in not giving the Dragon a saving throw.

What good is having "poor maneuverability" rules for dragon flight if you are not going to use them?

The Dragon has this disadvantage when flying, but the DM ignores it in one of the few situations where it applies? Why? A person has "perfect maneuverability" over smooth ground in DND. But, Dragons do not have perfect maneuverability. Dragons which would challenge a mid-level party tend to have poor maneuverability when flying.


It is reasonable to give a saving throw, but it is also reasonable to not give a saving throw. Neither is necessarily better.

 

[Andur]

Now for a really nasty thought, what if you created the wall edge-on to the dragon? Easier to dodge, but if it didn't...

Sorry, but a Wall of Force has no thickness, thus cannot be interacted with on edge at all.

For the idea that it should do nonlethal damage, does it make sense if one falls on a wall of force that all the damage should be nonlethal. Force is more deadly than matter. But in this case 6d6 no save (I'm in the dragons can't see it camp. Bats couldn't see it either, blindsense should only be applied to matter, not force) sounds right.

And if the dragon's breath weapon has a range greater that 55 ft. well, too bad he readied it for when the dragon reached 50 ft. away.