mach1.9pants
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How Would You Design Fourth Edition?
- Thread starter Zamkaizer
- Start date
Fallen Seraph
First Post
Raduin711 said:
I wouldn't mind seeing that.
Though it be hard to balance D&Dism and Storytelling System, they clash in some places.
Pale Jackal
First Post
Couple things I would do differently:
3E-style Skills except: make less useful skills cost less... possibly using 3/2/1 (high-utility/medium/low) or possibly 4/2/1. This is contrary to 4E's stated goal of making things simpler, but whatever. Also, there would be the caveat that the DM is welcome to change the values if appropriate (i.e. swim becomes more useful in a seafaring campaign.)
Rechargeable per encounter abilities: I think that I'd try to design "per encounter abilities" so that they're not 2 times (or more) better than at-will abilities. Potent, but situational, perhaps? This is a minor nit-pick.
3E-style Skills except: make less useful skills cost less... possibly using 3/2/1 (high-utility/medium/low) or possibly 4/2/1. This is contrary to 4E's stated goal of making things simpler, but whatever. Also, there would be the caveat that the DM is welcome to change the values if appropriate (i.e. swim becomes more useful in a seafaring campaign.)
Rechargeable per encounter abilities: I think that I'd try to design "per encounter abilities" so that they're not 2 times (or more) better than at-will abilities. Potent, but situational, perhaps? This is a minor nit-pick.
Last edited:
Li Shenron
Legend
Either way
HeavenShallBurn
First Post
Already built, the wiki is under construction on my home server. All the blanks are being filled in using the SRD as a framework. When it's done I'll let it loose on the web for free.
It probably won't topple 4e, but if it does I'll smile and moon Hasbro
It probably won't topple 4e, but if it does I'll smile and moon Hasbro
Jeff Wilder
First Post
I like almost everything WotC is doing with 4E, and would likely do it similarly, with two (unfortunately major) exceptions:
(1) The major changes they're making to "D&D brand fantasy." Tieflings and dragonborn as core races is almost certainly losing them customers. (Is warforged core? If so, that's another one.) These things, especially as conceived and shown in the art we've seen so far, are just too far from traditional D&D. Effectively, if people want to use all of the core rules, they're forced to begin entirely new campaigns. It's probably a good idea to begin a new campaign with a new edition, but forcing it is inviting players not to buy into 4E.
If it were me, I'd have stuck with the races of 3.5, with the possible exceptions of gnomes. (I'm not a gnome hater, but honestly the only gnome characters I've seen in the last four years of 3.5 have been the ridiculously over-powered whisper gnomes.) I do like the split of elves and eladrin, however; most campaigns I've played in already have a division between "magical elves" and "hippie elves." I also think you could add shifters and changelings pretty easily, as long as suggestions were made for introducing them to existing campaigns in a subtle way, and that's not really hard to do for those races.
You could also argue that the cosmology changes are too much, too fast, but I've rarely played in a game where it mattered whether the planes existed in Great Wheel form or not, so I don't think that's a major stumble.
(2) The 1-1-1-1 rule. This single rule -- and the change in mindset that its existence indicates -- is what will keep me from ever playing 4E. I'm an abstract thinker, but this rule's just more than I can look past, even with a lot of effort. I think this rule demonstrates a lack of respect for the intellect of gamers, and a fundamental misread of what people actually want.
(The poll here on EN World showed twice as many people would rather keep the 1-2-1-2 rule for movement, and hexes actually got more positive response than 1-1-1-1. Even if you discount those numbers some because the poll is self-selected, and even if you (almost certainly rightly) assume that it's less of an issue for most objectors than it is for me, it remains a tremendous bungle. In an edition that it stressing mobility and fluidity in combat more than ever, it is remarkable that WotC would deliberately introduce such huge inaccuracy in movement distances and tactical map layout.)
There is a third issue, but it's one that I only raise as a player-designer. If I were designing for WotC, I think they're doing it exactly right. Namely, the creation of "powers" for all character classes. WotC's best-selling books in 3.5 have been "modular crunch": feats, spells, tricks, martial maneuvers, vestiges, mysteries, prestige classes. Now they've created powers, an entirely new -- and undoubtedly huge -- new class of modular crunch with which to sell books. Every single class will have lists of new powers, to go along with the rest of the stuff I listed, in new books.
It's very savvy business. I don't much like it as a player, but the truth is, I bought every bit of it as a 3.5 gamer, and if I were going to 4E, I'd buy every bit of it there, too. And that makes it brilliant design, from a corporate perspective.
If I were designing as a player, I'd make things more constructed ... this "power component" moves an enemy, this power component imposes a condition, this power component helps a teammate in some way, and you build your powers yourself from those lists. But, again, the problem with that approach, from a corporate perspective, is that once the players have the power components they aren't going to buy lists of powers. Sure, you might be able to squeeze out a book of power components, but that's pretty much it ... no milking it, as 4E splatbooks will do.
(1) The major changes they're making to "D&D brand fantasy." Tieflings and dragonborn as core races is almost certainly losing them customers. (Is warforged core? If so, that's another one.) These things, especially as conceived and shown in the art we've seen so far, are just too far from traditional D&D. Effectively, if people want to use all of the core rules, they're forced to begin entirely new campaigns. It's probably a good idea to begin a new campaign with a new edition, but forcing it is inviting players not to buy into 4E.
If it were me, I'd have stuck with the races of 3.5, with the possible exceptions of gnomes. (I'm not a gnome hater, but honestly the only gnome characters I've seen in the last four years of 3.5 have been the ridiculously over-powered whisper gnomes.) I do like the split of elves and eladrin, however; most campaigns I've played in already have a division between "magical elves" and "hippie elves." I also think you could add shifters and changelings pretty easily, as long as suggestions were made for introducing them to existing campaigns in a subtle way, and that's not really hard to do for those races.
You could also argue that the cosmology changes are too much, too fast, but I've rarely played in a game where it mattered whether the planes existed in Great Wheel form or not, so I don't think that's a major stumble.
(2) The 1-1-1-1 rule. This single rule -- and the change in mindset that its existence indicates -- is what will keep me from ever playing 4E. I'm an abstract thinker, but this rule's just more than I can look past, even with a lot of effort. I think this rule demonstrates a lack of respect for the intellect of gamers, and a fundamental misread of what people actually want.
(The poll here on EN World showed twice as many people would rather keep the 1-2-1-2 rule for movement, and hexes actually got more positive response than 1-1-1-1. Even if you discount those numbers some because the poll is self-selected, and even if you (almost certainly rightly) assume that it's less of an issue for most objectors than it is for me, it remains a tremendous bungle. In an edition that it stressing mobility and fluidity in combat more than ever, it is remarkable that WotC would deliberately introduce such huge inaccuracy in movement distances and tactical map layout.)
There is a third issue, but it's one that I only raise as a player-designer. If I were designing for WotC, I think they're doing it exactly right. Namely, the creation of "powers" for all character classes. WotC's best-selling books in 3.5 have been "modular crunch": feats, spells, tricks, martial maneuvers, vestiges, mysteries, prestige classes. Now they've created powers, an entirely new -- and undoubtedly huge -- new class of modular crunch with which to sell books. Every single class will have lists of new powers, to go along with the rest of the stuff I listed, in new books.
It's very savvy business. I don't much like it as a player, but the truth is, I bought every bit of it as a 3.5 gamer, and if I were going to 4E, I'd buy every bit of it there, too. And that makes it brilliant design, from a corporate perspective.
If I were designing as a player, I'd make things more constructed ... this "power component" moves an enemy, this power component imposes a condition, this power component helps a teammate in some way, and you build your powers yourself from those lists. But, again, the problem with that approach, from a corporate perspective, is that once the players have the power components they aren't going to buy lists of powers. Sure, you might be able to squeeze out a book of power components, but that's pretty much it ... no milking it, as 4E splatbooks will do.
I'd start by embracing the current OGL and d20 licenses and looking at third party rules supplements I'd also draw from some of WOTC's existing products. My big changes would be changing the class mechanics to be talents/feats, replacing the current arcane magic with a skill/feat system (Elements of Magic), adding a skill/feat Psychic system (Psychic's Handbook, and a new magic item creation system (Artificer's Handbook)
1. General
a. Fewer Absolutes as per Sean K. Reynolds web articles
b. Slower Leveling
c. No level draining
d. No XP cost for casting spells or creating items. XP would be soley for determing when a character levels.
e. hexes replace squares bases for those using maps
f. Remove Great Wheel from Core (reintroduce it for a Greyhawk supplement)
g. The only NPC classes would be commoner, craftsman, merchant, performer, professional, and scholar. Adepts would be low level spellcasters of the appropriate class type or an NPC class with a feat to cast minor spells or wild talent to use psychic abillities. Warriors would be low level fighters.
h. Quick NPC generation mechanics for the DM (based on Spycraft or HeapThamaturgist d20 adapation).
2. Races:
a. keep the 3e races
b. Remove non-biological aspects from the races.
c. add lizard man
d. half (race) becomes a feat for humans that is only available at level 1.
3. Introduce cultural packages for different environmennts that provide some bonus skill ranks in skills(think Rolemaster or HARP adolescence) plus a regional feat or two and/or other abilities like heat tolerance, cold tolerance. or disease tolerance. The idea is that a cultural package could be added to any race either by the DM to develop cultures for their world or by players (if the DM approves). This also allows for easy determination of abilities for a member of a race growing up in a culture different from the one that is standard for their race in a given campaign.
4. Introduce Backgrounds/professions. They would be similar to d20 occupations, but like some of the feats in AEG's Swashbuckling Adventures would grant a few additional class skills and ranks to split between them.
5. Classes-general
a. classes would grant talents and bonus feats simliar to d20Modern
b.remove automatic armor and weapon proficiencies from classes. They would become feat choices
c. a first level, a character recieves additional bonus feats based upon their class. These bonus feats need to be spent on a list of class feats or general feats. These bonus feats would represent the characters initial period of training. A character multiclassing into a new class does not receive these additional bonus feats just a single feat or talent .
d. a character's initial class gives one time saving throw bonuses.
e. nerf the spellcasters so that they are balanced with other characters at higher level.
f. take several existing class variants from UA and a few other sources and duplicate them to demonstrate how to recreate standard fantasy archetypes.
6. New Classes
Knight: based upon Hong's Knight varint of the OA Samurai
Martial Artist
Noble: based on Green Ronin's Noble's Handbook
Psychic: based on Green Ronin's Psychic's Handbook
Shaman: based on Green Ronin's Shaman's Handbook
Warrior Mage: based on AEG's Myrmidon from Mercenaries
Witch: based on Green Ronin's Witch's Handbook
7. Hit Points:
a. more hit points at first level
b. The amount is set or smaller increases (e.g. no con bonus after first level). Luck and combat ability can be simulated with action points, class based defense, fighting defensively, and feats
8. action points.
9. Skills
a. minmum of 4+Int skill points per level
b. Get rid of Use Rope
c. add a few more knowledge skills
d. Change Knowledge (local) to Knowledge (Cultures).
e, introduce expanded skills from various products
10. Feats
a. Remove Natural Spell and improved unarmed strike
b. add the Brawl, Combat MA and Defensive MA feat trees from d20 Modern
c. add several of the divine feats
d. add tactical feats
e. add weapon style feats
f. add the wild cohort feat from the WOTC website
g. add weapon group feats per Unearthed Arcana (but actually use the PO: Combat and Tactics weapon groups)
h. grab various other feats from various products
i. bard lore, rage, sneak attack, turn undead become feats (or possibly talents)
11.Combat
a. add class defense bonuses.
b. armor as dr
c.combat maneuvers per Book of Iron Might (Malhavoc)
d. A damage track with penalties at 1/2 and 1/4 hit points
e. No negative hit points. Instead, use the death and dying rules from Unearthed Arcana.
f. some feats become maneuvers.
g. multiple attacks for classes would be available to fighter types only based on level in the class. Other classes would have to acquire via feats.
12. Equipment:
- no spiked chains, urgosh's, etc. in the core rules.
- remove tanglefoot bags, sunrods, etc. from the core rules
- remove halfling riding dog's from the core rules
- add several types of armor like bone, cord, leather scale, etc.
- add several weapons including atatls, boomerangs, cutlass, bolas, garrotes, harpoons, staff-sling and various polearms
13. Psionics: would be skill and feat and based off of the Psychic's Handbook (Green Ronin)
14. Magic:
a. Arcane: base it off of Elements of Magic: Mythic Earth or Elements of Magic: Revised (Both from EN Publishing)
b. Divine casters would use spontaneous divine casting and spells would be called prayers. Prayers would be more closely tied to the deity's domains.
c. Introduce Ritual Magic (Relics and Rituals).
d. Revise Domains
e. ditch law chaos based spells, rope trick,
f. teleporation, summon monsters, raise dead, resurrection, etc, become rituals
g, change spells that have reduced or no effect because of target's level/hit die to staged effects based on the degree of the saving throw failure. A natural 1 is no longer an automatic failrue.
h. change save or die spells to damage spells or staged effects based on degree of the save failure.
i. healing magic would not be positive energy, but from a deity
15. Magic Items
a. Get rid of the Christmas Tree effect.
b. Get rid of XP costs
c. Item Creation. Probably use the Artificer's Handbook as a guide.
15. Miscellaneous
a. change turn undead to keep keep at bay or drive off rather than destroy.
b. add chase mechanics based upon the Hot Pursuit books.
1. General
a. Fewer Absolutes as per Sean K. Reynolds web articles
b. Slower Leveling
c. No level draining
d. No XP cost for casting spells or creating items. XP would be soley for determing when a character levels.
e. hexes replace squares bases for those using maps
f. Remove Great Wheel from Core (reintroduce it for a Greyhawk supplement)
g. The only NPC classes would be commoner, craftsman, merchant, performer, professional, and scholar. Adepts would be low level spellcasters of the appropriate class type or an NPC class with a feat to cast minor spells or wild talent to use psychic abillities. Warriors would be low level fighters.
h. Quick NPC generation mechanics for the DM (based on Spycraft or HeapThamaturgist d20 adapation).
2. Races:
a. keep the 3e races
b. Remove non-biological aspects from the races.
c. add lizard man
d. half (race) becomes a feat for humans that is only available at level 1.
3. Introduce cultural packages for different environmennts that provide some bonus skill ranks in skills(think Rolemaster or HARP adolescence) plus a regional feat or two and/or other abilities like heat tolerance, cold tolerance. or disease tolerance. The idea is that a cultural package could be added to any race either by the DM to develop cultures for their world or by players (if the DM approves). This also allows for easy determination of abilities for a member of a race growing up in a culture different from the one that is standard for their race in a given campaign.
4. Introduce Backgrounds/professions. They would be similar to d20 occupations, but like some of the feats in AEG's Swashbuckling Adventures would grant a few additional class skills and ranks to split between them.
5. Classes-general
a. classes would grant talents and bonus feats simliar to d20Modern
b.remove automatic armor and weapon proficiencies from classes. They would become feat choices
c. a first level, a character recieves additional bonus feats based upon their class. These bonus feats need to be spent on a list of class feats or general feats. These bonus feats would represent the characters initial period of training. A character multiclassing into a new class does not receive these additional bonus feats just a single feat or talent .
d. a character's initial class gives one time saving throw bonuses.
e. nerf the spellcasters so that they are balanced with other characters at higher level.
f. take several existing class variants from UA and a few other sources and duplicate them to demonstrate how to recreate standard fantasy archetypes.
6. New Classes
Knight: based upon Hong's Knight varint of the OA Samurai
Martial Artist
Noble: based on Green Ronin's Noble's Handbook
Psychic: based on Green Ronin's Psychic's Handbook
Shaman: based on Green Ronin's Shaman's Handbook
Warrior Mage: based on AEG's Myrmidon from Mercenaries
Witch: based on Green Ronin's Witch's Handbook
7. Hit Points:
a. more hit points at first level
b. The amount is set or smaller increases (e.g. no con bonus after first level). Luck and combat ability can be simulated with action points, class based defense, fighting defensively, and feats
8. action points.
9. Skills
a. minmum of 4+Int skill points per level
b. Get rid of Use Rope
c. add a few more knowledge skills
d. Change Knowledge (local) to Knowledge (Cultures).
e, introduce expanded skills from various products
10. Feats
a. Remove Natural Spell and improved unarmed strike
b. add the Brawl, Combat MA and Defensive MA feat trees from d20 Modern
c. add several of the divine feats
d. add tactical feats
e. add weapon style feats
f. add the wild cohort feat from the WOTC website
g. add weapon group feats per Unearthed Arcana (but actually use the PO: Combat and Tactics weapon groups)
h. grab various other feats from various products
i. bard lore, rage, sneak attack, turn undead become feats (or possibly talents)
11.Combat
a. add class defense bonuses.
b. armor as dr
c.combat maneuvers per Book of Iron Might (Malhavoc)
d. A damage track with penalties at 1/2 and 1/4 hit points
e. No negative hit points. Instead, use the death and dying rules from Unearthed Arcana.
f. some feats become maneuvers.
g. multiple attacks for classes would be available to fighter types only based on level in the class. Other classes would have to acquire via feats.
12. Equipment:
- no spiked chains, urgosh's, etc. in the core rules.
- remove tanglefoot bags, sunrods, etc. from the core rules
- remove halfling riding dog's from the core rules
- add several types of armor like bone, cord, leather scale, etc.
- add several weapons including atatls, boomerangs, cutlass, bolas, garrotes, harpoons, staff-sling and various polearms
13. Psionics: would be skill and feat and based off of the Psychic's Handbook (Green Ronin)
14. Magic:
a. Arcane: base it off of Elements of Magic: Mythic Earth or Elements of Magic: Revised (Both from EN Publishing)
b. Divine casters would use spontaneous divine casting and spells would be called prayers. Prayers would be more closely tied to the deity's domains.
c. Introduce Ritual Magic (Relics and Rituals).
d. Revise Domains
e. ditch law chaos based spells, rope trick,
f. teleporation, summon monsters, raise dead, resurrection, etc, become rituals
g, change spells that have reduced or no effect because of target's level/hit die to staged effects based on the degree of the saving throw failure. A natural 1 is no longer an automatic failrue.
h. change save or die spells to damage spells or staged effects based on degree of the save failure.
i. healing magic would not be positive energy, but from a deity
15. Magic Items
a. Get rid of the Christmas Tree effect.
b. Get rid of XP costs
c. Item Creation. Probably use the Artificer's Handbook as a guide.
15. Miscellaneous
a. change turn undead to keep keep at bay or drive off rather than destroy.
b. add chase mechanics based upon the Hot Pursuit books.
Last edited:
scruffygrognard
Adventurer
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