D&D 5E How would you rule on this Dispell Magic?

[Maxperson]

Aaargh. But that will force a mention of gnomes and rapiers, and then [MENTION=6799753]lowkey13[/MENTION] will appear.

Armed with a katana I'm sure.

 

[plisnithus8]

There doesn't have to be a combat action for combat to start. Two sides see each other and initiative is rolled before anyone gets to move. The flyer was not hidden and was holding a visible wand, so he would not be able to just unilaterally get an action without anyone else being able to act.

The way you are fighting for this flyer to succeed and for the caster to not have been able to do anything, makes me think that you are the flying trying to get away with the wand of orcus at the expense of the rest of the party.

I have mentioned previoudly I was the flyer. I started this thread because of interesting yet sudden set of events that transpired and in my game. I don't feel a need for my character to succeed, am just hoping for some intelligent analysis.

I don't understand why if other characters have no idea where eldritch knight is or what he is doing he cannot take and finish an action that starts before they have any knowledge if it. I stated I wanted him to fly/dash 120' above the party, out of the dungeon and 50' into the air.

The players see the wand gly overhead, may somehow perceive him invisible, but I don't have a clue why you are saying his movement should be interupted for iniative to be rolled.

 

[Aenorgreen]

Initiative is the mechanic used to determine who does things first. If my character wants to move 20' up to someone pull out a dagger and stab them, initiative is rolled BEFORE I get to do any of that. Sure that is all things I can accomplish on a single turn, but the other person may get to act before I do them. Whenever there is a question of timing, it is better to do it in turns with initiative for the exact reason of determining order.

 

[plisnithus8]

Initiative is the mechanic used to determine who does things first. If my character wants to move 20' up to someone pull out a dagger and stab them, initiative is rolled BEFORE I get to do any of that. Sure that is all things I can accomplish on a single turn, but the other person may get to act before I do them. Whenever there is a question of timing, it is better to do it in turns with initiative for the exact reason of determining order.

I don't follow the logic of that applied here.
Why would the wizard go into initiative unless the knight flew into the room? The knight's action is the antecedent. Without the knight moving first, there would be no reason to cast dispel magic.

I asked this before because I really want to listen and figure it out:
If a PC takes a stated action such as taking a dash action from a hidden location and decides to move quickly instead of super stealthily past a potentially hostile group, does the encounter (in this case the party seeing the wand fly in) trigger initiative rolls or does the dashing PC get to finish his stated action before initiative begins?

Page 189 of PHB states, "If neither side tries to be stealthy, they automatically notice each other."
The eldritch knight did turn invisible but didn't ask for a stealth check (Is that something the DM should have asked him to do?).
Does noticing a high-flying wand (and potenially the invisible flyer) mean combat begins immediately?
If it does and the wizard wins, could she do both a perception check on there being an invisible creature (a Search action?) and cast Dispel Magic (an action) before the flyer is out of the room?

 

[Maxperson]

I don't follow the logic of that applied here.
Why would the wizard go into initiative unless the knight flew into the room? The knight's action is the antecedent. Without the knight moving first, there would be no reason to cast dispel magic.

I asked this before because I really want to listen and figure it out:
If a PC takes a stated action such as taking a dash action from a hidden location and decides to move quickly instead of super stealthily past a potentially hostile group, does the encounter (in this case the party seeing the wand fly in) trigger initiative rolls or does the dashing PC get to finish his stated action before initiative begins?

This is a DM call. However, in my opinion the knight is basically declaring his action and since he wasn't stealthed, he was noticeable and others could notice the beginnings of that movement and move to prevent it. Hence combat.

Page 189 of PHB states, "If neither side tries to be stealthy, they automatically notice each other."
The eldritch knight did turn invisible but didn't ask for a stealth check (Is that something the DM should have asked him to do?).

That's a playstyle call. Some DMs will call for the check, or at least ask if the PC is going to be stealthy. Other DMs like me will just treat the PC as not being stealthy unless the player states that the PC is being stealthy.

Does noticing a high-flying wand (and potenially the invisible flyer) mean combat begins immediately?

Not necessarily. However, the desire of the wizard to stop it definitely starts combat. You now have two opposing sides.

If it does and the wizard wins, could she do both a perception check on there being an invisible creature (a Search action?) and cast Dispel Magic (an action) before the flyer is out of the room?

As noted in other posts. You don't have to make the perception check. The dispel can target the effect.

 

[plisnithus8]

Other DMs like me will just treat the PC as not being stealthy unless the player states that the PC is being stealthy...As noted in other posts. You don't have to make the perception check. The dispel can target the effect.

Thank you for the thoughtful responses.

One question: if you as a DM wouldn't ask the knight who took time to turn off invisible for a stealth check, why would you assume the wizard is targeting the fly effect instead of the flying wand?

 

[Maxperson]

Thank you for the thoughtful responses.

One question: if you as a DM wouldn't ask the knight who took time to turn off invisible for a stealth check, why would you assume the wizard is targeting the fly effect instead of the flying wand?

I wouldn't assume. The wizard would tell me what is being targeted. If for some reason the player said something like, "I dispel it!", I'd ask for what they meant by "it". Usually the player says something more like, "I dispel the wand!" or "I dispel invisibility near the wand!", etc.

 

[Aenorgreen]

A note, since the flyer specified that they wanted to dash for the 120' movement, they obviously were not taking an action to stealth. The action had already been declared to be used for dash. So by their choice of actions it is already clear that they were not trying to be stealthy. A DM might still double-check if that is what they really want, but I think it tends more towards the assumption of no stealth.

 

[The Crimson Binome]

I asked this before because I really want to listen and figure it out:
If a PC takes a stated action such as taking a dash action from a hidden location and decides to move quickly instead of super stealthily past a potentially hostile group, does the encounter (in this case the party seeing the wand fly in) trigger initiative rolls or does the dashing PC get to finish his stated action before initiative begins?

You can draw an analogy with a situation that's more clear-cut: If a PC wants to attack someone who doesn't expect it (either because the PC is hidden, or because they don't think the PC is hostile), then you roll initiative before the attack roll instead of giving the PC a free shot outside of the initiative order. Anyone who rolls higher than the PC, in that case, doesn't know what's going to happen and essentially loses their first turn (which is considered an acceptable loss in order to make the game playable, much like not being able to delay your initiative). At least nominally, the PC will get a free shot in essence, because the enemies will be surprised and just stand around on their first turns.

The difference between being in combat and being out of combat is that we only invoke the combat rules when we care about the order of resolution. If we care about the order of resolution, then we use initiative to determine that. If we don't care about the order of resolution, then we could use initiative to determine it anyway, but we choose to save ourselves from unnecessary bookkeeping. In the situation of a PC moving past a potentially hostile group, we are pretty sure that we might care about the order of action resolution, so we should invoke the combat rules as early as possible in order to cover that.

 

[plisnithus8]

I wouldn't assume. The wizard would tell me what is being targeted. If for some reason the player said something like, "I dispel it!", I'd ask for what they meant by "it". Usually the player says something more like, "I dispel the wand!" or "I dispel invisibility near the wand!", etc.

If she said dispel the wand, there would be no effect since the wand is exhibited no magic of its own.
In first post, wizard said she wanted to cast dispel to "stop it." I wouldn't allow her to dispel invisibility because dispelling invisibility wouldn't stop it.