I don't get the dislike of alignment as a character-building concept

[Hussar]

It is the same with most monsters we kill them because they are either trying to kill us or the people we are protecting.

Yeah, how dare they try to kill us when we invade their homes and steal their belongings.

/edit to add. Elf Witch, would you characterize the campaigns you play in as reactive or pro-active? In other words, does the DM set the scenario and the players react to that scenario or do they go out and look for stuff on their own? Generally speaking of course, because no campaign is truly one way or the other.

Because, from what you're describing, it sounds like your campaigns are generally reactive - "They are trying to kill us" "We're defending", which makes alignment a whole lot easier. You're right. If the baddies are trying to eat/kill/hurt/whatever you, then you're just defending yourself and that's pretty justifiable. OTOH, if you're doing a Caves of Chaos style adventure where the PC's are going into the homes of other creatures, unprovoked, without any real authority, and committing mass slaughter, then it gets a whole lot more difficult to justify good vs evil.

 

[Elf Witch]

The difference lies in that it's a very rare campaign where PC's are either soldiers OR lawmen. Typically, they are neither and are certainly not lawfully empowered to enforce anything. Additionally, they are not constrained by legal systems in place to make sure that they don't overstep their authority.

I've seen this comparison a number of times when this topic comes up and it really seems more apples and oranges to me.



So, your characters never enter the homes of monsters? You only ever kill in self defense? Really?



Going into an ancient dungeon and finding items is called grave robbing and it's generally punishable in all sorts of unpleasant ways. Looting the dead SOLDIERS was a form of payment, true. But going into a tomb and robbing it was always seen as evil.

And, again, PC's aren't soldiers. The comparison isn't really valid.

You are speaking in absolutes here in most of the games I play in the party is usually not a bunch of people who met in a tavern and go out adventuring for the sake of adventuring. They belong to churches, kingdoms, guilds and often armies.

And there have always been laws of course they can choose to ignore the laws just like people do in real life.

It is really up to the DM to put these kind of laws in place. I always do and so do the other DMs I play with on a regular basis.

When I talk about monsters I am talking about creatures like slimes, undead like skeletons and zombies you get the drift here. And why shouldn't you explore their homes since their homes are usually in the wilds are abandon ruins. Are you saying that it is wrong to go on safari because you are entering wild dangerous animals homes? Yes my characters have entered the homes of monsters and yes my character has killed them in self defense. I have also trapped them so we didn't have to kill them, left them alone and ran away from them.

We have even gone in and killed a group of evil mindflayers in the sewers of the city but they were kidnapping people and breaking the city law and we had a warrant from the king.

I will have to let my cousin know that she is a grave robber and can expect the law at her door anytime. Since she has an archeologist has gone into pyramids, the tar pits in England and other ancient burial sites.

And yes this is a debate that has been going on in archeology circles for a long time of when is it proper to disturb ancient burial grounds. Some say never others say once there is no one left to care.

People have been grave robbing since time began. And it depends on each culture on how they look at it. Some cultures find desecrating the body at all as something evil other believe that eating your fallen enemy was a sign of respect. In modern day some Jews believe that an autopsy or taking organs for transplant is a sin. And it goes without saying that a lot of people don't.

You can do the same for your DnD worlds decide what is acceptable and what is not.

Just like you can decide what part if any alignment plays in your world.

 

[Elf Witch]

Yeah, how dare they try to kill us when we invade their homes and steal their belongings.

I don't think the slime, ghouls, and zombies I killed last week in game really cared about the artifact we were after. Because technically the last people to own the rod of law were the wind dukes and they are all gone from the world.

But they did leave a prophecy that when the world faced great danger from evil it would surface again and make it is way into the hands of a hero who would use it to save the world.

But what the hey saving the world is not as important as not disturbing some monsters and taking things that have nothing to do with them nor do they care about foolish me.

And I guess my lawful good wizard is really evil for doing what she did. I guess it is time to go out and slay babies and kick puppies.

 

[Elf Witch]

Bingo. And there's the reason that people have a problem with alignment. We can kill/destroy anyone on Team Evil for no other reason than they are on Team Evil and they just need killing.

What difference does it make what alignment the denizens of the dungeon are? You have gone into their home, slaughtered them, taken their possessions and then go home. But, because it says "evil" in their alignment line it's okay, but, if it said "good" it would be bad?

I don't know how you play your games but in the games I play just walking up and detecting evil on someone and then killing them does not happen. There are laws in place to stop that. And done of us play clerics or paladins that lawfully stupid.

And usually when we get into a battle with team evil as you put it , it is usually because they started it and doing something to hurt the world or innocents. And since 99 times out of 100 they won't surrender and face justice instead choosing to attack they don't usually leave us much choice.

If you have an issue with alignment then don't use it but there are also plenty of gamers who don't have an issue with it.

 

[Hussar]

I don't know how you play your games but in the games I play just walking up and detecting evil on someone and then killing them does not happen. There are laws in place to stop that. And done of us play clerics or paladins that lawfully stupid.

And usually when we get into a battle with team evil as you put it , it is usually because they started it and doing something to hurt the world or innocents. And since 99 times out of 100 they won't surrender and face justice instead choosing to attack they don't usually leave us much choice.

If you have an issue with alignment then don't use it but there are also plenty of gamers who don't have an issue with it.

So, yes, your games do tend to be reactive. That does make it easier.

On your second part about having an issue with alignment, ummm, I'd point to the title of the thread. He DID ask what the problem was. That you don't have this problem doesn't mean that no one else does.

 

[Frostmarrow]

For what it's worth: My short hand for alignment gives your moral is your moral. Your ethic is what moral you think the world is. A lawful evil character is evil and thinks the world is good. Try it on.

 

[Pentius]

RE: Party alignment in dungeon crawls.

The way I see it, everyone has the right to live and try to kill folk.

 

[Elf Witch]

So, yes, your games do tend to be reactive. That does make it easier.

On your second part about having an issue with alignment, ummm, I'd point to the title of the thread. He DID ask what the problem was. That you don't have this problem doesn't mean that no one else does.

We do tend to react to the clues and plot hooks the DM puts in the game we don't play sandbox style games so it is very rare that we tell the DM hey we are going to go and hunt some drow today.

But on the other hand just because some people have issues with alignment does not mean that others do.

One thing that tends to get me on discussions like this is the idea that because I don't find alignment broken or bad I must not be playing DnD by the default way it is written. Not saying that you are saying that. But it is often implied. It has already been said in this thread.

I love a good alignment discussion on is this an evil act or fill in the blank. I find it interesting to see how other people view morality and where they draw the line on what is an evil act. What I don't tend to enjoy is when the conversation goes to extremes. Like the paladin must use torture to save the world or zombies have feelings to. I find those examples to be counter productive to any real discussion.

Now the goblin tribe raiding travelers to survive or what to do with prisoners those discussions I find fascinating.

I can see that for some people and the games they run they find that alignment does not work for their group.

 

[Bedrockgames]

I agree with Elf Witch that just because some people have a problem with a particular mechanic and others don't, that doesn't mean the mechanic is bad. It is a taste thing. Some people like alignment, others don't.

With alignment it makes sense for the kind of game D&D is. The problem arises, in my opinion, when people have difficulty putting their real world assumptions about morality aside (or in certain modes of play where good guys basically do bad things). D&D is much more about a black and white, heroic fantasy treatment of good and evil.

 

[Agamon]

You mean 100% of the people don't agree about something? That's novel. Hopefully one can still debate the merits or lack thereof on topics like this one.

Alignment really shines when a game is full of big shining heroes and wicked dasterdly villians. Good is good, evil is evil, no problem. My spell says you're evil, then you are, the gods have cast you as such, and as an agent of good I must smite thee. I have no problem with that.

If, however, your game world isn't like that, I find that alignment hinders more than helps. Also, there are endless debates about what x alignment means, but no one asks about how to play someone that is lazy, selfless, bold or greedy. A few personality traits just seems a better way to describe a PC or NPC without painting the world in black and white strokes.