"I don't like my Christmas present" -- do you enjoy getting treasure?

Yora

Legend
If you want to give out items that the players actually want, then pick items that are improved version of the mundane equipment they have already chosen for themselves.

If you put a fancy bow in the treasure, but none of the characters is an archer, they will just sell it, because nobody wants to change his character so the item becomes useful for him.
Amulets that improve armor class, belts that improve strength, or a magic longsword in a group in which a character already has a magic longsword will probably always be taken with much gratitude.
 

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Noumenon

First Post
I think all of this is related to the feeling that many D&D players share that magic items have lost their magic, especially in 4E. Part of this is due to the inevitable shift that occurs from childhood to adolescence to adulthood.

I think that's a huge part of it, now that you mention it. Especially for me, who started playing way late into adulthood.

[*]"Lesser" items that have a limited charge of some kind. These are items that have been created in the modern era, a time in which the crafting of "greater" items has been lost. Modern mages have tried to reverse-engineer the ancient items that have been found. What happens is that they are less powerful and less lasting; some even break apart after their charge is used up - the physical object can only hold the magic so long, which weakens it. These items can be found in Ye Olde Magick Shoppe and are the type that stack with bonuses, as well as most "common" and a few "uncommon" items in 4E.

This sounds like a great way to implement the concept of "invincibility star" short-term magic items.

I want an endless bag of rats. I want the most comfortable pants in the world. I want swords that talk to you in unknown tongues, and shields that sometimes attract every arrow in the room to save your friends, and shimmering gems that do things I can't quite understand.

I don't want to look down an endless list, spend money, and have a pile of statistics.

I think it's my Magic: the Gathering background that makes me go the other way, and not want any magic items that don't come straight from the rulebook -- they don't seem as real.

We might be different in real life, too -- I could imagine your treasure preference reflecting the kind of person who likes to wait in line to get the new iPhone, while I would be the person who wants to custom-pick the cheapest components for his Dell.

The assumption here seems to be that the referee is placing treasures he thinks the players will want, rather than placing treasures randomly or by what makes sense in the context of the game-world.

This idea that treasure is something the players are expected to get in x amounts and that characters are 'built' around these expectations are so beyond me I don't even know what to say.

To me it seems entirely as natural as expecting to get your spells when you level up your wizard. If I couldn't anticipate getting a robe of scintillating colors, or craft my own prismatic dagger, I'd have been far less happy with my rainbow mage. If I have to pick between the "build" model where I imagine what my character would do with Nolzur's marvelous pigments and the "magical magic" model where I take what the DM places, I'd take the build model and accept that I wouldn't be excited finding treasure.

Isn't the process of building a new high-level character and picking out magic items that fit him sometimes more satisfying than finding a bunch of stuff in dungeons? Found treasure is like having the DM pick which class abilities you get when you level up.

But given the difficulty of playing Father Christmas, your worldbuilding model of treasure placement might be the way to go.

Because of your baksheesh bag, I'm adding the idea "Put in treasure the party knows one NPC will really want" to my list of ideas for exciting treasure.

I think I'm in the original poster's camp.

Welcome to my camp! Here's your complimentary mug. Oh, wait, you probably really wanted a beer stein...

One last thing, questing for magic items doesn't seem viable to me. Number one, it will take up a third of all your adventuring time, and force the DM to create all these sidetreks. Number two, it's really not much different than just putting the item on a wishlist and asking your DM to put it in the next dungeon.
 

kitsune9

Adventurer
Welcome to my camp! Here's your complimentary mug. Oh, wait, you probably really wanted a beer stein...

One last thing, questing for magic items doesn't seem viable to me. Number one, it will take up a third of all your adventuring time, and force the DM to create all these sidetreks. Number two, it's really not much different than just putting the item on a wishlist and asking your DM to put it in the next dungeon.

Thanks! So when do I get my membership ring and learn the secret handshake? ;)

I agree with your point. When I run Pathfinder, I let my players handle their upgrade so long as they follow a hard gp limit that I've set for each level. I borrowed that from my RPGA days so that players who managed to pinch their coppers don't manage to buy a +3 sword at 5th level.

Granted, there's some of that, "Where's the magic gone?" from the game, but I can deal with it.
 

The Shaman

First Post
To me it seems entirely as natural as expecting to get your spells when you level up your wizard.
Except when I played D&D, spells gained on leveling up were random, not selected.

Isn't the process of building a new high-level character and picking out magic items that fit him sometimes more satisfying than finding a bunch of stuff in dungeons?
No, it really isn't.
 

Allowing magic item purchase is verbotten! for just this reason in my campaigns. 1st off, a player with a DMG is a no-no rule left over from my 1e days. The idea of smoke and mirrors/the mystery of what's behind the screen is one I would like to see return. Not because of some weird power trip but because the unknown is what made the game so fun, especially when I was younger. And yes, I even appreciated it as a player when I played in other people's games, I didn't want to KNOW what was happening, I wanted to DISCOVER what was happening. One of the prime reasons I liked RPGs over board games.

Because of this factor, if you find any magic item, regardless of what it is, it becomes special. For all you know, the +2 Flametongue you desire may not even exist in my world. One of my biggest gripes with 3.X and 4e is the ability of players to make decision regarding the magic items they can acquire, how do they know what's available? Is there a shop that just pumps these out? If that were the case, Excalibur and Sting would have been much less extraordinary. I still lovingly long for the days of the 1e artifacts that listed a couple of abilities and then had a row of blanks for the DM to fill in later. Even two identical items(in two different campaigns of course) never had the same abilities. That sense of mystery is something sorely lacking in today's games.
 

Celebrim

Legend
As a DM, how and why I place treasure hasn't changed in the slightest since the 1e era. Third edition crafting rules didn't change anything for me really. I just expanded my game in to the ambiguities and details of the system, and despite having some objections as to the pricing system, generally felt comfortable and at home with the addition of a formal system.

1) Generally speaking, magic items of the sort useful to adventurers not purchasable. The exception is that readily craftable low value items like potions and scrolls (which were comparitively easily craftable even 1e) are readily purchasable in large cities from temples, hedge mages, and alchemists. Such items could possibly be commissioned from wizards provided one with the suitable skills could be found, and a friendly relationship with that wizard established, but this would usually involve several quests both to gain the wizards trust and to obtain the necessary regeants for the work. In my game world there is also a merchant guild that specializes in dealing magic items and other rare arcane goods, and they hold monthly auctions, but such auctions are secret, invitation only affairs, held in major metropolises only, and involve me making 2d4 random rolls on a treasure table. Buyers are often powerful, wealthy, and out bidding them for rare items generally earns you an enemy willing to kill you to get what they want. Even this most well connected merchant house can't gaurantee a particular item is ever available.

2) You can, if you have the skills, make it yourself, but this requires knowledge of a 'recipe' and obtaining certain rare ingredients. Though a large market for ordinary spell components and reagents exists so that your gold is probably effectively fungible if you are making a potion of cure light wounds, rare ingredients for powerful items generally aren't available on the open market.

3) Items are created and placed primarily with thought to what makes sense within the game world. The tomb of a wizard probably doesn't contain a magic sword, and may not contain ANY treasure unless culturally it was considered appropriate to bury a person with their most valuable possessions or some other in game explanation exists for why there is treasure down there. Likewise, some reason why the tomb hasn't been robbed of treasure must exist. If the treasure is easy to obtain, chances are someone would have already obtained it. So if the tomb DOES contain a magic sword, it's probably the possession of a tomb robber and nearby will be the trap or tomb gaurdian that did him in.

4) A certain amount of treasure is randomly generated because I feel that true randomness generates a more believable range of treasure than if I choose everything.

5) A certain amount of treasure is designed to have immediate use to the party in general and particular characters specificly. This is justified on two levels. First of all, it is assumed that the characters are not so unique that their needs and desires aren't common to a large portion of the adventuring or heroic class. Therefore, most of the powerful items that have been created were created specificly for people very much like the adventurers is skills and needs. The magic sword of the tomb robber is therefore very much the sort that a tomb robber with a rogueish skill set would have desired to have. Since my general rule on powerful treasures is to give out small amounts of above average items rather than large amounts of subpar stuff, and since I'm fairly good at ascertaining what a player wants, I'm usually pretty good at wowing a player with something better than he expects without unbalancing my game.

For example, I recently placed a Eager Keen +2 Rapier of Swiftness which was inscribed with the name 'Firstblood'. The rogue in the party was very pleased. It's awesome treasure, especially given the average character level in the party right now is only 4th. But, on the other hand, it's only a +2 weapon and its probably going to be the best item available until the character is 12th level or more. It's expected to last basically his whole career. Better yet from my perspective, the item is one which I can and intend to elaborate on over time. The item is subtly cursed, and the character is going to unlock 'powers' - good and bad - as he levels up and has he fulfills certain prerequisites (like spilling innocent blood). Allowing items to evolve has a long history in the game (see Ring of Elemental Command, Artifacts, etc.), and its nice because a lot of people tend to build 'relationships' with inanimate objects.

Secondly, it's justifiable on the metagame level because I as the DM have some obligation to ensure that somewhere out there are the resources necessary for the players to overcome the challenges I intend to present them with. The game is more fun for me as the DM if the players can win, and indeed most of the time do win. Therefore, it rewards myself to reward the players with the sort of things that they need. They don't need to give me a 'wish list', because I know even better than they do what they really need. What they want is a less important consideration, because players often want more than they actually need, or desire things that allow them to overcome every obstacle in a straight foward manner. But ultimately, this may be less fun for them than making do with less. The more mature sort of player recognizes that getting everything they want, makes the game 'Monte Haul', and less rewarding thereby and so they expect and desire me to make it tough on them.

To the OP I would say, it is apparantly your experience that magical treasure is never very exciting. But, however real that experience is, it's just one perspective on the game based on one sort of experience. In my experience, I've never had a player that wasn't excited about magical treasure, and while I've found a lot of treasure as a player that was merely ho-hum, I've also found a lot of treasure that was just awesome and became almost character defining me. Indeed, it wasn't that unusual in dungeon crawling centered games for your character to be defined as much for the stuff he carried as his personality. Some of my most favorite treasure was never findable on any treasure table or list, like the short sword +3, detect magic x3 daily with the periapt of proof against poison built into the pommel.
 
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Rogue Agent

First Post
I think it's my Magic: the Gathering background that makes me go the other way, and not want any magic items that don't come straight from the rulebook -- they don't seem as real.

I was going to recommend Putting the Magic in Magic Items, but I'm not sure it will be relevant: It assumes that the player is actually interested in playing a roleplaying game and not a tactical simulator. The fundamental problem here seems to be that you don't really care about the game world. The only thing you appear to be interested in is the mechanical build.
 

S'mon

Legend
Isn't the process of building a new high-level character and picking out magic items that fit him sometimes more satisfying than finding a bunch of stuff in dungeons?

No, for me finding stuff in dungeons is exciting, unless maybe I think it was just 'given' by the DM; building a high level PC and selecting gear is just a tedious chore before I can play.
 


Troll Lord

First Post
I actually like that idea, unusual as it seems. You get a holy avenger, but only for the next three encounters. Go! Or you get a javelin of lightning, use it or lose it. It's kind of like the Super Mario school of treasure rewards, no one's ever blase about getting an invincibility star.

How are you making the items impermanent and nonhoardable? Is it just a feature of the world that things break fast? Is all their treasure coming from a fairy who's watching them and giving them little boons?

Generally when I run a game I destroy equipment...alot. For instance if I know a character has 5 hit points, and I hit and do 7, I'll lie to the player, tell them they took 3 hit points but the force of the blow on the top of the shield tore the arm straps from their anchors, making the shield useless. Quick players know exactly what I'm doing and don't complain.

So I've carried that over to the magic items, lesser items simply get broken. A +1 shield, suffers that fate above. I also use dispel magic a little more generously, and channel undead level drain for that purpose.

I have one of my players who is hording though and his character is becoming unbalanced. I'm not sure what I'm going to do about it, probably a major dispel magic on him. Another was hording but happily swapped it out for something that did similar. The funniest is Mac, he loves the concept and is never married to equipment. They are just tools to him, magic or otherwise. He has lost three major swords...but realized that the major losses are replaced by other magic and his experience is about 15% higher than everyone else at the table. :lol: He's loving it.

So overall, it seems to be working, but I have these few kinks to work out. I don't like to vengefully kill characters (its a game that is supposed to be fun!) but I'm inching toward that with the one.

I'll entertain any suggestions folks might have!

Steve
 

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