D&D 5E I figured out why all 5e ship rules suck

[Lanefan]

The hardest thing for me, is how to capture the idea of simultaneous movement and not turn based movement.

Easy enough - each round, resolve each ship's movement and action(s) in turn but with the clear understanding that it's all happening at once.* Just because the shots from your ship happen to be resolved first at the table doesn't mean the target ship will sink before it can fire back: it too gets its shots in for the round, and maybe after that it sinks.

Also, and again this is different from how normal D&D combat works, movement has to be seen as a continuous thing. In a normal D&D combat, movement often almost seems to work like a mini-teleport - you're here, and on your turn you're suddenly there, having spent no apparent in-game time to cover the distance. Can't do that with ships.

* - unlike a typical D&D combat; and D&D could really use a lot more simultaniety of resolution in its combat mechanics.

One idea I liked from black seas is being able to fire on your opponents turn (almost like a 5e reaction) in exchange for not firing on your turn. There is a slight penalty to it but I really like that rule. They call it Fire as She Bears.

Still sounds too turn-based.

 

[NotAYakk]

Easy enough - each round, resolve each ship's movement and action(s) in turn but with the clear understanding that it's all happening at once.* Just because the shots from your ship happen to be resolved first at the table doesn't mean the target ship will sink before it can fire back: it too gets its shots in for the round, and maybe after that it sinks.

Also, and again this is different from how normal D&D combat works, movement has to be seen as a continuous thing. In a normal D&D combat, movement often almost seems to work like a mini-teleport - you're here, and on your turn you're suddenly there, having spent no apparent in-game time to cover the distance. Can't do that with ships.

* - unlike a typical D&D combat; and D&D could really use a lot more simultaniety of resolution in its combat mechanics.

Still sounds too turn-based.

Yes, make it phase based.

A Command phase. This is when the captain gives orders. There is a check involved.

Then a maneuver phase. Winners can change range.

I guess damage control and fire happens at the same time. Things that are broken are broken for at least a turn this way, and you can shoot damage control parties repairing stuff as well.

With no maps, range is functional - what can you do at that range.

You do have to, as mentioned, make sure that an adventuring party off a ship is suicide, and that typical combat spells and abilities only work at the closest range increment; two ships in bowshot range (within 1000') are EXTREMELY close.

 

[TheSword]

The problem still appears that both ships would fire when their opponent was at the right point, they wouldn’t move and fire, move and fire. Just my thoughts.

 

[Lanefan]

The problem still appears that both ships would fire when their opponent was at the right point, they wouldn’t move and fire, move and fire. Just my thoughts.

Unless it's flat calm or they're hove-to they're going to keep moving whether they want to or not. Whether they move much in relation to each other is an open question, but they will be moving; and when one ship is in range to fire that means by default the other will be also, so each will end up simultaneously moving and then (probably) simultaneously firing.

The tactics come in when trying to ensure your movement puts you broadside-on to the other ship(s) while keeping their bow or stern toward you.

 

[TheSword]

Unless it's flat calm or they're hove-to they're going to keep moving whether they want to or not. Whether they move much in relation to each other is an open question, but they will be moving; and when one ship is in range to fire that means by default the other will be also, so each will end up simultaneously moving and then (probably) simultaneously firing.

The tactics come in when trying to ensure your movement puts you broadside-on to the other ship(s) while keeping their bow or stern toward you.

I think you misunderstand me. That’s my point, ships aren’t still they don’t move and fire, move and fire. They are moving and then at some point along that path they fire. So is the other ship.

But game systems operate a move and fire approach. It is ridiculously easy to line up your broadsides on the bow when you get to move a substantial distance and fire because it’s your turn and the opposing ships just has to sit there and wait.

Turn based combat means your ship gets to fire at the advantageous point, and my ship has to sit and wait until that point has passed and then try and move to fire again on my turn at a different spot. Hence me advocating being able to fire at any point in your opponents turn at the cost of firing in your own.

In fact I would allow ships a number of reaction options, the chance to fire, or a skill check to take evasive maneuvers to turn to protect your bow or stern.

 

[JiffyPopTart]

I think you misunderstand me. That’s my point, ships aren’t still they don’t move and fire, move and fire. They are moving and then at some point along that path they fire. So is the other ship.

But game systems operate a move and fire approach. It is ridiculously easy to line up your broadsides on the bow when you get to move a substantial distance and fire because it’s your turn and the opposing ships just has to sit there and wait.

Turn based combat means your ship gets to fire at the advantageous point, and my ship has to sit and wait until that point has passed and then try and move to fire again on my turn at a different spot. Hence me advocating being able to fire at any point in your opponents turn at the cost of firing in your own.

In fact I would allow ships a number of reaction options, the chance to fire, or a skill check to take evasive maneuvers to turn to protect your bow or stern.

Many games have the ships move one at a time...until they all have moved. Then they have them all fire after the movement is complete. This better (but not perfectly) simulates everyone moving at once.

Some games even divide the moves into multiple steps so that each ship moves 1/x of it's movement evenly until they are all finished.

Simarly some games allow a player to "mark" when during the stepped movement they wanted to fire and allow shots against enemies who are no longer in view, range, or other favorable situations.

I'm a fan of all 5e combat feeling like 5e combat though, regardless of what combat is being simulated. Otherwise save yourself the effort of custom building something and just pick up an off the shelf naval miniatures combat game.

 

[TheSword]

Many games have the ships move one at a time...until they all have moved. Then they have them all fire after the movement is complete. This better (but not perfectly) simulates everyone moving at once.

Some games even divide the moves into multiple steps so that each ship moves 1/x of it's movement evenly until they are all finished.

Simarly some games allow a player to "mark" when during the stepped movement they wanted to fire and allow shots against enemies who are no longer in view, range, or other favorable situations.

I'm a fan of all 5e combat feeling like 5e combat though, regardless of what combat is being simulated. Otherwise save yourself the effort of custom building something and just pick up an off the shelf naval miniatures combat game.

Those are fair points. Im not sure what it is about reactions that make it not seem like a 5e game though?

 

[JiffyPopTart]

Those are fair points. Im not sure what it is about reactions that make it not seem like a 5e game though?

It's not reactions, it's that trying to swim upstream against the one-complete-turn-at-a-time generates friction and leads to the "people don't want to learn new rules" issue that (to some) holds back innovative 5e design.

I'll refer back to my previous exams of the old WEG Star Wars RPG. There was a standalone fighter dogfighting game (Star Warriors) that used the stats from the RPG to represent the ships and pilots, but which did combat in a totally different way than combat between fighters in the RPG.

In a way the OP is designing the 5e version of Star Warriors.

 

[Lanefan]

I think you misunderstand me. That’s my point, ships aren’t still they don’t move and fire, move and fire. They are moving and then at some point along that path they fire. So is the other ship.

But game systems operate a move and fire approach. It is ridiculously easy to line up your broadsides on the bow when you get to move a substantial distance and fire because it’s your turn and the opposing ships just has to sit there and wait.

Turn based combat means your ship gets to fire at the advantageous point, and my ship has to sit and wait until that point has passed and then try and move to fire again on my turn at a different spot. Hence me advocating being able to fire at any point in your opponents turn at the cost of firing in your own.

So move away from turn-based combat to a more 1e-like system where every ship declares its action (preferably in secret) then they all resolve at once. And be granular with it, to allow a ship to react with next round's action to what happens in this one. (in other words, every round is in effect a "reaction", there's no sub-round reaction-speed events)

 

[Lanefan]

It's not reactions, it's that trying to swim upstream against the one-complete-turn-at-a-time generates friction and leads to the "people don't want to learn new rules" issue that (to some) holds back innovative 5e design.

Which raises a point: why does this have to be specifically tied to 5e? As no previous or current edition has really done this right, a good naval combat system would ideally be edition-agnostic (as no matter what edition you're running it'll be its own subsystem anyway) and thus slottable into any D&D game out there.