I Just Don't Know What to Do. . .

[Whimsical]

Right now, I'm DMing for the group while the other DM takes a break - I've run their characters up to 7th level since last August. I have been thinking about boosting them to 15th level before turning the game back over to him - just to show him what it could be like.

That was going to me my suggestion. I did that a few months after 3e came out. I adapted one of those 2nd ed. adventures intended to end your campaign for 20th level play and ran it as a one-shot for my group. I had them create 20th level characters and they went through it mightely and we all enjoyed the experience. It gave us all a glimpse of what it is like to play high level, when the highest we have ever played was 10th level. My suggestion is to start such a game with a bang. When you create an asskicking superhero, you are chomping at the bit to see how well it does in action. You know, most action adventure TV shows start off with a mook fight right off the bat.

 

[Crothian]

Having trouble getting over level 12? Oathbound...its a higher level setting desinged for these levels.

 

[Abraxas]

Oathbound isn't really an option, we don't want to buy another setting.

 

[kamosa]

It seems that our group will be starting over, again. :\

Ever since 3.0 has come out our DM doesn't feel comfortable once we hit about level 12 and we end up taking a break and then instead of continuing, we start over. So my cleric, Grymjak - who has a nifty portrait from Claudio Pozas that I never got to use - is going into the folder with all the other characters that never got past 13th level. It used to be that we all died at 5th level, now we just retire at 12th.

Has anyone else had this problem? What did you do to stop it from happening? What can I do to help him stop ending campaigns at 12th level?

Also, we rolled up new stats (and everyone rolled completely out of their gourd) but I don't know what to do with them. I don't want to play another cleric or rogue - but I'm not really sold on any of the other classes (especially if they aren't going to get past 12th level)

Here's what I rolled 18, 17, 15, 14, 13, 11

What would you folks do with these scores? Its a FR game and we can use the following sources;
Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting, Players Guide to Faerun, Faiths and Pantheons, Unapproachable East, Races of Faerun, Magic of Faerun, Unearthed Arcana's Racial Paragons, Miniatures Handbook (Ch. 1-4), Expanded Psionics Handbook, Book of Exalted Deeds, Complete Warrior, DMG, PHB
No race with ECL greater than 1.

I would try something out of the Expanded Psionics Handbook. Try the new Soul Knife. There are lots of cool things you can do with the Psi focus related feats, and the customizing your weapon stuff looks cool.

 

[Crothian]

Oathbound isn't really an option, we don't want to buy another setting.

Fair enough...my next suggestion is talk to the DM and the players about the 12th level glass ceiling. See what you can all figure out is the reason it exists.

 

[pogre]

I have had a couple of designers tell me they are not interested in games going past 12th level. Frankly, it is a different game and some folks do not dig it. Right now I am chomping at the bit to run my campaign at those higher levels, but we have not been there for a while. Alas, my last two campaign have ended in TPK.

Stealing from a suggestion above, maybe you could run a new campaign for the higher level folks. Let the DM play your character and have the two groups existing at the same time in the world. Perhaps let them cross paths a couple of times - could add a whole new dimension to your gaming.

 

[Doctor Futurity]

You know, if the problem is that your campaign has a certain built-in deadline due to the 12th level cap, maybe your GM should dole out the xp more slowly, to extend that period of the campaign's length. Another possibility is that the DM should be stingier with rewards, such that the overall power level is not so overt (i.e. a fraction of the usual/standard wealth and magic items by 12th level).

In my campaigns, I have 4 concurrent series running in different groups, ranging from 5th to 25th level; I really think characters in D20 don't start looking "competent" in D20 until they hit 8th level; in 2nd edition, I felt PCs got to retirement level at abot 14th-15th level, but in 3.5, 20th level is manageable....and the Epic Level book has given me plenty of juice for the venerable questing 23-25th level Epic game which we still touch base with every other month or so.

I think the ratio is 3:2 on AD&D vs. 3.5 advancement level for level (a 10th level fighter in 2nd edition is equivalent to a 15th level fighter in 3.5). Not so much because characters are less powerful in 3.5.....in fact, I think that level for level, they are more powerful, but instead because the rest of the game has been engineered toward a broader, tougher scale. Essentially, the mechanics, monsters, and rules are geared to be more challenging to tougher PCs. As such, I really think 3.5 campaigns aren't complete (as a DM) until PCs get a shot at reaching 20th level.

 

[DM_Jeff]

Life after 12th

As a long time DM, I know of this problem. There's a number of reasons, and it might not just be that you're reachinbg 12th level. Has the DM specifically said that PC power was the issue, or is he just done telling his 'tale' or story arc?

I know sometimes I end my campaigns at 10th or 12th level because the PCs have all done their basic, attainable goals and after such a 'height' in the story, to continue on is like never knowing when to leave a party (standing and with dignity instead of wearing out your welcome).

And yes, my players are sometimes dissapointed because many want to stubbornly continue to play their PCs long after even they realize it's getting old.

But none of this is about handling the power level. I had an awesome Kalamar game go to 18th level with the story arc I set at 1st level. But anyway, the "soloution":

Ask your DM to do reunions with the group who ended at 12th level. This is what I do. The Unlikely Company group I 'disbanded' in 1998 still meets 4 to 5 times a year to play specific 1-shots that I've had time to work to their challenge level. Makes every reuniuon really special and gives a chance to reembrace old friends.

-DM Jeff

 

[DM_Jeff]

Life after 12th

As a long time DM, I know of this problem. There's a number of reasons, and it might not just be that you're reachinbg 12th level. Has the DM specifically said that PC power was the issue, or is he just done telling his 'tale' or story arc?

I know sometimes I end my campaigns at 10th or 12th level because the PCs have all done their basic, attainable goals and after such a 'height' in the story, to continue on is like never knowing when to leave a party (standing and with dignity instead of wearing out your welcome).

And yes, my players are sometimes dissapointed because many want to stubbornly continue to play their PCs long after even they realize it's getting old.

But none of this is about handling the power level. I had an awesome Kalamar game go to 18th level with the story arc I set at 1st level. But anyway, the "soloution":

Ask your DM to do reunions with the group who ended at 12th level. This is what I do. The Unlikely Company group I 'disbanded' in 1998 still meets 4 to 5 times a year to play specific 1-shots that I've had time to work to their challenge level. Makes every reuniuon really special and gives a chance to reembrace old friends.

-DM Jeff

 

[Rel]

I'll chime in from the perspective of a DM who (thus far) doesn't really enjoy running high level campaigns.

I've just finished running a game the saw the characters rise to about 12th level before it reached the pre determined end of the campaign (I didn't just yank the rug out from under them when they hit 12th, it was the end of the major plot arc). Prior to that most of our campaigns ended when the characters were no higher than 8th level, though we give out XP at a reduced rated from the core rules so these previous campaigns lasted 6-9 months each.

The combat powers of the PC's and critters at high levels start to pile up quite a bit and this has the potential to slow things down considerably. But I can roll with that pretty well. One always has the option to throw large groups of mooks at them who have relatively simple powers and whose main challenge is in their numbers. The problem I have is the campaign building aspect.

If you play more or less by the rules as written, the magic starts to get a bit over the top for my tastes. And I'm not just talking about the PC's. I try to create bad guys who are smart and use their abilities to best achieve their goals. When they have access to spells up to 7th level and beyond, they have got tons of options for how to execute their plans and many of them are VERY powerful. I also like to have a lot of power players (I don't mean PC's, I mean VIPs) in the world so that it is more interesting than just the PC's vs. One Big Bad Guy.

So throw all these powerful individuals, all with different agendas, all with different but powerful and varied magical capabilities into the mix and it winds up being a hell of a lot to juggle. I enjoy spending time on my D&D campaign, but I've got a job, wife and child to attend to. Also consider that I think I'm a pretty smart guy, but I'm probably not any smarter than my players. I'm definately not smarter than the group of them working in concert. They are expert at finding little loopholes in the plans of my villians (which I enjoy to a certain extent).

The net result is that I start to feel overwhelmed at the upper levels. Everybody is scrying, teleporting all over the place, communing with the gods, planar travelling, raising big armies, summoning demons and devils by the dozens and generally wreaking mahem of various sorts. I reach a point where I feel like I'm managing to scramble to keep up, but it stops being fun for me. And "no fun for the GM" = "End of Campaign".

All of that said, I think I could run a high level campaign (at least for a while) if I set up the world to limit some of the stuff that drives me the most crazy. Scrying and Teleport are two of the biggies because with them in play, you can never be sure of where any of the high level individuals in the world will be at any given moment. I guess I feel like that no matter what direction the PC's take, if they have to travel to get there it gives me a little breathing room and time to plan.

But that might be another reason why I shy away from high level gaming. If I have to nerf the abilities of the players and bad guys in order to keep it fun, why not just play at levels where I don't have to nerf them at all?