I Just Don't Know What to Do. . .
- Thread starter Abraxas
- Start date
Henry
Autoexreginated
I have a few random thoughts; feel free to heed or ignore them as you like.
Are boatloads of sources available every time he runs a game? If so, it's possible he's setting himself up for failure before he begins. The more sources available, the more complicated PC's get, and the more devastating combos of Prestige Classes and feats and class abilities come into play that make high-level DM'ing more complicated.
Too many sources mean too many posible exploits in abilities. There's nothing wrong with lots of sources, it's just that some DM's don't like to or can't handle the myriad complications that all these sourcebooks jammed together introduce. Just because they're WotC-introduced doesn't mean they are balanced one with another.
As a suggestion, he or you should try building a campaign from scratch using ONLY the core 3.5 rules and see where that takes you. While 3.5 has it's idiosyncasies, it is more compatible with higher-level games than 3.0 was. The core books are still a wealth of choices, and it just may narrow the focus enough such that he's inspired to take the campaign to higher levels.
With scores like that, you can be anything and everything! Every class has something to offer at lower levels as well as high. If you don't have a preference, or if you want to be a "real gamer" about it, roll a d12 for a random class and a d6 for race and a 1d2 for gender and play whatever comes up.
I've actually done this before, and my little female halfling druid was a blast to play.
Are boatloads of sources available every time he runs a game? If so, it's possible he's setting himself up for failure before he begins. The more sources available, the more complicated PC's get, and the more devastating combos of Prestige Classes and feats and class abilities come into play that make high-level DM'ing more complicated.
Too many sources mean too many posible exploits in abilities. There's nothing wrong with lots of sources, it's just that some DM's don't like to or can't handle the myriad complications that all these sourcebooks jammed together introduce. Just because they're WotC-introduced doesn't mean they are balanced one with another.
As a suggestion, he or you should try building a campaign from scratch using ONLY the core 3.5 rules and see where that takes you. While 3.5 has it's idiosyncasies, it is more compatible with higher-level games than 3.0 was. The core books are still a wealth of choices, and it just may narrow the focus enough such that he's inspired to take the campaign to higher levels.
With scores like that, you can be anything and everything! Every class has something to offer at lower levels as well as high. If you don't have a preference, or if you want to be a "real gamer" about it, roll a d12 for a random class and a d6 for race and a 1d2 for gender and play whatever comes up.
I've actually done this before, and my little female halfling druid was a blast to play.
Mystery Man
First Post
Start a campaign or a one shot at level 15.Create only CR 10-15 encounters. Remember its not a competition, no one "wins" and let the players just stomp all over. Gradually increase the difficulty as everyone gets better. Everyone will get the hang of it and it will be fun. Promise.
I agree with Henry. Too much stuff can ruin the fun. Start by limiting the resources (main core books) but not the options.
After running a high level campaign I have a hard time with lower levels.
I agree with Henry. Too much stuff can ruin the fun. Start by limiting the resources (main core books) but not the options.
After running a high level campaign I have a hard time with lower levels.
Rel
Liquid Awesome
Mystery Man said:
While I appreciate the "dip your toe in the pool: the water's fine" approach you espouse, Mystery Man (if that is your real name
), I'm not sure it really addresses the problem, at least not from my perspective. To me, it isn't an issue of the "flash and slash" of high level encounters. It is the day to day, wheels within wheels complications of the high level game and the reprocussions of high magic that make my head ache. In fact, I think that a one-shot would be one of the only ways I COULD have much fun with high level D&D.
Altamont Ravenard
Explorer
I think Rel put it nicely and summed up my reasons, as a DM, for not liking high-level play. Another reason, for me, is that I'm playin 10-12th level characters in two other games, and I get the impression that it's always a butt-handing ceremony, ie either the players totally destroy their opponents, or the opponents kill of a couple of the PC's before we have a chance to react. This lead to a lot of deaths, thus XP loss, and general stagnation in level raise. We've played maybe 3-4 sessions with one DM and 5-7 with another, and both my characters in these games (and my characters aren't the only ones biting the dust) are of a lower level now than they were 5 (or so) sessions ago.
AR
AR
FreeTheSlaves
Adventurer
I ran a campaign that couldn't get past level 12 and I wonder if your DM has encountered similar issues.
Mine were:
* An increasingly adversarial tone, between player and dm.
* A notable lack of party cooperation, each trying to be a self contained character rather than part of a team.
* Super DCs made encounters much easier than the EL would suggest. When I tricked out a BBEG it was almost a TPK (contributing to the adversarial tone).
* A power imbalance compared to the DC tricked character.
* Complete lack of character development. I think that the PCs may have levelled too fast because they were still hanging out in bars at level 12 waiting for a panicked mayor with a bag of gold to run in. The motivation seemed very mercenary and very reactive.
* I bit on the PC v NPC hook too and few of my npc's respected the PCs. It created a vicious cycle.
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The point of all the above after the dust has cleared is, has the campaign a solid foundation?
DMing gets harder with higher levels, more preparation needs to be done. Players that run high maintenance characters, i.e. characters tricked out to best take advantage of the campaign style may be making the DM job harder to challenge the party within the standard ELs.
To give better help I need to know why does the campaign end. Is the dm getting frustrated or bored?
Mine were:
* An increasingly adversarial tone, between player and dm.
* A notable lack of party cooperation, each trying to be a self contained character rather than part of a team.
* Super DCs made encounters much easier than the EL would suggest. When I tricked out a BBEG it was almost a TPK (contributing to the adversarial tone).
* A power imbalance compared to the DC tricked character.
* Complete lack of character development. I think that the PCs may have levelled too fast because they were still hanging out in bars at level 12 waiting for a panicked mayor with a bag of gold to run in. The motivation seemed very mercenary and very reactive.
* I bit on the PC v NPC hook too and few of my npc's respected the PCs. It created a vicious cycle.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
The point of all the above after the dust has cleared is, has the campaign a solid foundation?
DMing gets harder with higher levels, more preparation needs to be done. Players that run high maintenance characters, i.e. characters tricked out to best take advantage of the campaign style may be making the DM job harder to challenge the party within the standard ELs.
To give better help I need to know why does the campaign end. Is the dm getting frustrated or bored?
Calico_Jack73
First Post
I hate to say it but I am one of those kind of GMs. I think there are a couple of reasons for it. Firstly, as far as gaming goes I have a very severe case of Attention Deficit Disorder. I'll see something new that has just come out and it'll get all the creative juices flowing but it'll only work for that product. The latest instance of this was when I ditched my Forgotten Realms campaign after 3 sessions because I had discovered Midnight. Most of the time however it is a whole different game. I'm trying to fight the urge to do it again since I am really wanting to run/play a Twilight:2000 game.
The second reason is that I much prefer playing to running. Unfortunately nobody else in my group likes to GM all that much and since I brought my group together everyone kind of assumes that I am the "default" GM. I'm trying to convince some of the group members to at least run a game for a while to give me a chance to play but so far there really aren't any takers.
The third reason is that after a while I find that the roleplaying can suffer when the PCs get too powerful. It gets more and more difficult to challenge the players with something totally new.
The last reason is that I get tired of running "EVERYTHING". I hate it when players require me to keep throwing them adventure hooks and never do anything themselves. I don't mind running modules and "linear" adventures but the best game I ever ran was when I sat back and my players proactively ran the campaign and all I had to do was sit back and respond to what they did.
The second reason is that I much prefer playing to running. Unfortunately nobody else in my group likes to GM all that much and since I brought my group together everyone kind of assumes that I am the "default" GM. I'm trying to convince some of the group members to at least run a game for a while to give me a chance to play but so far there really aren't any takers.
The third reason is that after a while I find that the roleplaying can suffer when the PCs get too powerful. It gets more and more difficult to challenge the players with something totally new.
The last reason is that I get tired of running "EVERYTHING". I hate it when players require me to keep throwing them adventure hooks and never do anything themselves. I don't mind running modules and "linear" adventures but the best game I ever ran was when I sat back and my players proactively ran the campaign and all I had to do was sit back and respond to what they did.
Calico_Jack73
First Post
Ferret said:
Let me list the many ways I love Midnight:
1) Magic is RARE: A high level character is only likely to have one or two magic items. Even then, many characters won't keep them. Magic items can be tracked at great distances by the forces of evil and can so lead to the party's doom.
2) Evil is victorious: The Dark God has won and is now squashing all resistance. The PCs can't expect any help and are the last hope for a rapidly dying world. Commoners are more likely to turn in the PCs for a reward of food than to shelter them and possibly be arrested (or worse) for it.
3) Lots of new classes: The only 3 core classes that are playable are Rogues, Barbarians, and Fighters. This is to reflect that there is only one source of divine magic (the Dark God) and that it is a "magic rare" setting.
There are a lot of other reasons I love it but my fingers are getting tired. If you aren't familiar with Midnight imagine it as Middle Earth if Sauron had found and killed Frodo, recovered his ring, and smashed the armies that rose against him.
Arnwyn
First Post
Without insight to what your DM is thinking, I can only make two suggestions:Abraxas said:
1) Discuss your concerns with the DM, to try to get to the heart of the matter of why he ends campaigns around 12th level. Fully understanding the problem is the only way you'll even stand a chance of solving it.
2) Don't like ending campaigns at 12th level? DM yourself.
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