Professor Phobos
First Post
12th level seems like a pretty good stopping point to me, especially if the campaign has reached a climax. High-level games are tough.
I Just Don't Know What to Do. . .
- Thread starter Abraxas
- Start date
Mystery Man
First Post
Point me to the page in the PHB, DMG or MM that says you can't play that way.Rel said:
High level games are not for everyone. You must have a DM (like me) who is willing to do the work it takes for everyone to have fun. What I think most people have a problem with is the fact that high level play takes time, lots of patience and a DM and players who understand that the game is not about "winning", yeah there's a lot of effort that goes into playing upwards of level 15 and beyond.
Practice and patience, just like anything else.
Ozmar
First Post
What Rel said.
I've run pretty high levels, and it is a chore. I finally ended the game b/c I was too burned out trying to prepare for each simple adventure. Why work that hard? So I started over at level 1.
One possible solution presents itself to my mind: one of the biggest challenges for high-level play is for the DM to manage all the potent options available due to high-level magic. What if the players simply agreed to build characters who took their time to obtain the high level spells? By taking racial class levels, ECL +X races, and non-spell-casting classes and prestige classes and mixing them with your spell-casting classes, you can keep the maximum spell level available lower and play your characters longer, and hopefully present less of a headache for your GM.
Since he seems to dislike 7th level and above spells (based on quitting at 12th level), what if you had the following guideline.
Lvl Max spell level
1 1
2 1
3 2
4 2
5 3
6 3
7 3
8 4
9 4
10 4
11 5
12 5
13 5
14 5
15 6
16 6
17 6
18 6
19 6
20 7
So rather than advancing straight as a wizard, make the wizard/rogue and go for arcane trickster. Or make a wizard/fighter and go for eldritch knight. Make a wizard/psion. Take three levels of your racial paragon class.
Just a thought...
Ozmar the Thinker
I've run pretty high levels, and it is a chore. I finally ended the game b/c I was too burned out trying to prepare for each simple adventure. Why work that hard? So I started over at level 1.
One possible solution presents itself to my mind: one of the biggest challenges for high-level play is for the DM to manage all the potent options available due to high-level magic. What if the players simply agreed to build characters who took their time to obtain the high level spells? By taking racial class levels, ECL +X races, and non-spell-casting classes and prestige classes and mixing them with your spell-casting classes, you can keep the maximum spell level available lower and play your characters longer, and hopefully present less of a headache for your GM.
Since he seems to dislike 7th level and above spells (based on quitting at 12th level), what if you had the following guideline.
Lvl Max spell level
1 1
2 1
3 2
4 2
5 3
6 3
7 3
8 4
9 4
10 4
11 5
12 5
13 5
14 5
15 6
16 6
17 6
18 6
19 6
20 7
So rather than advancing straight as a wizard, make the wizard/rogue and go for arcane trickster. Or make a wizard/fighter and go for eldritch knight. Make a wizard/psion. Take three levels of your racial paragon class.
Just a thought...
Ozmar the Thinker
Rel
Liquid Awesome
Mystery Man said:Point me to the page in the PHB, DMG or MM that says you can't play that way.
Oh, believe me, I love one shot games myself. I'm preparing to run one at the next NC ENWorld Game Day in less than a week. But the OP seemed concerned that he wanted to continue playing his PC in a long term campaign.
Abraxas
Explorer
Wow, away for a day and everyone chimes in - 
Because multiple people have said similar things I'm going to lump them together and respond . . .
I DM the higher level group - well when the group starts to get to level 10 or so, the other DM wants to start DMing again. I just think he doesn't like those levels as a player or as a DM. Also, this option is not terribly satisfying to me because I really want to play my own character at those levels not just DM NPCs.
We have too many options - I tend to agree (this is why I am having so much trouble deciding what to play, there are just so many possibilities it boggggles my mind). But really most of us stick to the PHB and the 1 or 2 of the other sources.
High Level is Complicated for the DM - Generally, but we're not really "problem" players. In fact we really never had any of the "problems" that caused WoTC to revise a bunch of things for 3.5 - we just don't abuse the rules like that. We didn't have insane save DCs for our spells (mine were 15 + spell level, the wizards were 15 or 17 + spell level depending on school) and our ACs ranged from the high teens to the mid/high 20's (we got hit alot). We never used the all day Buff Banquet
Lack of Party Cooperation - This had been one of the most cooperative parties our gaming group has had to date. Everyone discussed their characters ahead of time and we were very careful not to step on each others schtick. Our group consisted of a Cleric/Divine Disciple/Contemplative of Hathor (me - geared toward defense and healing), a Wizard, a Paladin/Sorcerer, a Barbarian/Ranger/Flame Steward, a Druid, a Fighter/Rogue/Deepwoods Sniper, and a Fighter/Rogue. We actually had great nights at the bar developing combat fire teams, a buddy system when things got hairy, determining who would take lead in various RP situations, designating who would direct combat based on involvement and effectiveness, etc, etc . . . we worked like a well oiled machine - I'm getting geeked writing this, man we had FUN
. . .
DM Player Adversary - Maybe a little. A while back I posted some questions about a white dragon with pink double pupils. Turns out he was some sort of fiendish or half fiendish white dragon. He was working for/with priests of Auril and some frost giants. These folks were using us to collect 5 objects that when worn changed the wearer into the Champion of Auril. We kept getting out maneuvered and had ended up supplying them with 3 of the items. They were threatening our character's families and as a Cleric of Hathor I had a mad on about stopping them (but thats just me - I really get in to my characters - the DM knows this and uses it to push my buttons when we play so it isn't just one sided). It was an anti-climactic climax in which the dragon , the high priestess and the almost champion bit the big one (apparently this dragon is actually written up in the Silver Marches supplement) - we didn't get a scratch and weren't even breathing hard although we were so tense you would have thought we were playing russian roulette.
Players not Supplying Adventure Hooks - This is a diffence in DMing style between he and I - I like to create adventures based on what the players do, he creates adventures and puts the hook out for us to take. He is getting Much Much better though so we'll see how this next campaign goes.
Ultimately I just wanna flex my gaming muscles and try levels 13 to 20 (even I don't wanna play epic levels ).
Of course with my luck, this run will get to those levels and I won't be able to play Grymjak and I still won't be able to cast spells greater than 6th level :\ cause right now that dwarven barbarian/battlerager sounds really entertaining (although the ranger/rogue still sounds good too![:]](http://www.enworld.org/forum/images/smilies/devious.png "Devious :]")
)
There is another problem with the group that I can't seem to break them of - because everyone is familiar with FR it is almost impossible to get them to try any other setting or style of setting - Its the only setting that the other DM runs and everyone except me expects that setting style whenever anyone else DMs.
Because multiple people have said similar things I'm going to lump them together and respond . . .
I DM the higher level group - well when the group starts to get to level 10 or so, the other DM wants to start DMing again. I just think he doesn't like those levels as a player or as a DM. Also, this option is not terribly satisfying to me because I really want to play my own character at those levels not just DM NPCs.
We have too many options - I tend to agree (this is why I am having so much trouble deciding what to play, there are just so many possibilities it boggggles my mind). But really most of us stick to the PHB and the 1 or 2 of the other sources.
High Level is Complicated for the DM - Generally, but we're not really "problem" players. In fact we really never had any of the "problems" that caused WoTC to revise a bunch of things for 3.5 - we just don't abuse the rules like that. We didn't have insane save DCs for our spells (mine were 15 + spell level, the wizards were 15 or 17 + spell level depending on school) and our ACs ranged from the high teens to the mid/high 20's (we got hit alot). We never used the all day Buff Banquet
Lack of Party Cooperation - This had been one of the most cooperative parties our gaming group has had to date. Everyone discussed their characters ahead of time and we were very careful not to step on each others schtick. Our group consisted of a Cleric/Divine Disciple/Contemplative of Hathor (me - geared toward defense and healing), a Wizard, a Paladin/Sorcerer, a Barbarian/Ranger/Flame Steward, a Druid, a Fighter/Rogue/Deepwoods Sniper, and a Fighter/Rogue. We actually had great nights at the bar developing combat fire teams, a buddy system when things got hairy, determining who would take lead in various RP situations, designating who would direct combat based on involvement and effectiveness, etc, etc . . . we worked like a well oiled machine - I'm getting geeked writing this, man we had FUN
. . .DM Player Adversary - Maybe a little. A while back I posted some questions about a white dragon with pink double pupils. Turns out he was some sort of fiendish or half fiendish white dragon. He was working for/with priests of Auril and some frost giants. These folks were using us to collect 5 objects that when worn changed the wearer into the Champion of Auril. We kept getting out maneuvered and had ended up supplying them with 3 of the items. They were threatening our character's families and as a Cleric of Hathor I had a mad on about stopping them (but thats just me - I really get in to my characters - the DM knows this and uses it to push my buttons when we play so it isn't just one sided). It was an anti-climactic climax in which the dragon , the high priestess and the almost champion bit the big one (apparently this dragon is actually written up in the Silver Marches supplement) - we didn't get a scratch and weren't even breathing hard although we were so tense you would have thought we were playing russian roulette.
Players not Supplying Adventure Hooks - This is a diffence in DMing style between he and I - I like to create adventures based on what the players do, he creates adventures and puts the hook out for us to take. He is getting Much Much better though so we'll see how this next campaign goes.
Ultimately I just wanna flex my gaming muscles and try levels 13 to 20 (even I don't wanna play epic levels
).Of course with my luck, this run will get to those levels and I won't be able to play Grymjak and I still won't be able to cast spells greater than 6th level :\ cause right now that dwarven barbarian/battlerager sounds really entertaining (although the ranger/rogue still sounds good too
)There is another problem with the group that I can't seem to break them of - because everyone is familiar with FR it is almost impossible to get them to try any other setting or style of setting - Its the only setting that the other DM runs and everyone except me expects that setting style whenever anyone else DMs.
DragonShadow
First Post
When faced with a DM that refuses to run a high-level campaign, go with my motto:
A baseball bat always convinces the opposition, one way or the other.
Seriously though, if your DM is just not ready to run a campaign at higher levels, sit him/her down and start talking. If the entire group is having a problem with it, then it's really not fair and it's technically not the DM's choice.
The DM is god in only so many ways.
(Sorry if anybody else posted along the same lines, but I didn't feel like reading any of the other posts.)
A baseball bat always convinces the opposition, one way or the other.
Seriously though, if your DM is just not ready to run a campaign at higher levels, sit him/her down and start talking. If the entire group is having a problem with it, then it's really not fair and it's technically not the DM's choice.
The DM is god in only so many ways.
(Sorry if anybody else posted along the same lines, but I didn't feel like reading any of the other posts.)
Caspian Moon Prince
First Post
Very few of my games reach 12th level or when they do it is usually with a fighter class character(I mainly run games with my best bud). This puts a lot more control into my hands and helps keep the power level within certain perameters set by me. The reason I believe there are problems with high level campaigns is mainly with the spellcasting classes and their ability to have spells that can solve most of the problems a party is facing, or at least uncover any mystery. With this in mind a DM has to either keep in mind all of this and come up with ways around the spells(especially divination spells) or let the party use the spells to full effect and ruin the adventure.
One possible solution for running high level adventures, and this may sound odd, is to limit players from choosing the main spellcasting classes(druid, cleric, wizard, sorcerer). I doubt this would be much of a possiblity for many groups since people love their spellcasters, but it could give the DM a lot more control over the campaign.
One possible solution for running high level adventures, and this may sound odd, is to limit players from choosing the main spellcasting classes(druid, cleric, wizard, sorcerer). I doubt this would be much of a possiblity for many groups since people love their spellcasters, but it could give the DM a lot more control over the campaign.
kamosa
Explorer
I think a lot of GM's are uncomfortable with how high level magic changes the types of encountes and challenges you can run as a GM. When players are low level and in highly nerfed systems like Midnight, it is unlikely that players will come up with some way to avoid or destroy the adventure with a spell or magic power.
While it is possible and even fun to run the game to high levels, for some GM's it represents a change in the game that takes away their fun. It moves them into a style of gaming that they either don't like or aren't comfortable running. So, for them it is easier to just drop the campaign and start over.
It probably isn't anything you've done as a player or as a group. In fact if you were an obnoxious party, your GM would probably be starting you over at 9th level instead of 12th level.
At 13th level, your talking 7th level spells and probably more importantly, a decent number of 5th and 6th level spells.
Things that used to be a challenge, like movement challenges, social interaction challenges and mystery challenges are not much of a challenge for the average spell caster. The GM just doesn't want to change the types of adventures they run, so they start over.
My advice would be to have the GM slow down the handing out of XP in the game, so you get more adventures with your characters. If you push this GM to high levels I think it will be a bad scene. Either they will hate it and the game will stop running, or they will suck at it and they game will become a drag. Enjoy you GM at the levels they like to run or find a new GM.
While it is possible and even fun to run the game to high levels, for some GM's it represents a change in the game that takes away their fun. It moves them into a style of gaming that they either don't like or aren't comfortable running. So, for them it is easier to just drop the campaign and start over.
It probably isn't anything you've done as a player or as a group. In fact if you were an obnoxious party, your GM would probably be starting you over at 9th level instead of 12th level.
At 13th level, your talking 7th level spells and probably more importantly, a decent number of 5th and 6th level spells.
Things that used to be a challenge, like movement challenges, social interaction challenges and mystery challenges are not much of a challenge for the average spell caster. The GM just doesn't want to change the types of adventures they run, so they start over.
My advice would be to have the GM slow down the handing out of XP in the game, so you get more adventures with your characters. If you push this GM to high levels I think it will be a bad scene. Either they will hate it and the game will stop running, or they will suck at it and they game will become a drag. Enjoy you GM at the levels they like to run or find a new GM.
Rel
Liquid Awesome
DragonShadow said:
:\ Are you somehow suggesting that the DM needs to run a high level campaign for these players, even if it is against his will? Oh yeah, that'll go over real well:
"Wow, I can't believe we just had another TPK tonight. I guess you guys shouldn't have been so anxious to game at these high levels, huh?"
I do think it is fair for the players to say, "We want to try out playing at higher levels and if your next campaign isn't going there then count us out." It is also fair to say, "Next campaign, Bob is running the game and it is going into the upper levels. If you don't like that, Old GM, you should probably sit this one out."
But to say, "We, the players, who don't really have to do that much work except show up with our PC's, demand a high level game and you're going to give us one."
I don't think so.
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