I like 3E, but I miss...

[the Jester]

I just want to point out that multiclassed characters in earlier editions weren't the sum of their levels. They got half the hp, the best of their saving throws but not both put together, etc.

Storm Raven, I assume you remember that a dual classing human couldn't use his old class until his new class' level exceeded the old one? And he gained no hp or anything until this happened? This included his saves and THAC0 (essentially his BAB, for those of you not around in them days).

Also, you were done advancing in your first class- there was no going back.

So when you say that dualclassing was "just like multiclassing, with none of the drawbacks," you're pretty far off imo.

 

[Storm Raven]

you still get this formula wrong.

You still have never read the 1e experience point tables have you?

a ft7/mu8 = 8 (highest class) + 7/2 (other class lvls added divided by total number of classes) = 11.5 but since they don't have 1/2 classes. it should roughly = an 11th lvl character in some encounters and 12th in others.

not that i'm disagreeing about multiclassing necessary. just your facts and therefore the logic based on the miscalculated facts.

Your assumptions are ireelevant and inaccurate.

At the same experience point total, a single classed human fighter will be 8th level, which his multiclassed elven fighter magic-user counterpart will be 6th/7th level or 7th/8th level.

You can do all the mental math you want, but it doesn't change the fact that these characters have the same experience point total. In other words, according to the rules of the game a 7th/8th level Ftr/MU is equivalent to an 8th level Fighter.

Perhaps you should go back and read your source material before spouting the nonsense that comes out of your mouth.

 

[Mercule]

you still get this formula wrong.

a ft7/mu8 = 8 (highest class) + 7/2 (other class lvls added divided by total number of classes) = 11.5 but since they don't have 1/2 classes. it should roughly = an 11th lvl character in some encounters and 12th in others.

I suppose it depends on what formula you're using. I understand the basis for the one you threw out, but a much more reasonable comparison would be of two characters that started adventuring together at 0 XP and assume an even XP progression.

A level 9 MU requires 90,000 XP (all numbers from 1E PH). That same number (multiclass XP must be split evenly) gives a 7th level Fighter. So, 180,000 XP is the baseline XP for a 7/8 F/MU.

Take that 180,000 XP and see where the single classed Fighter gets. Hmm... 8th level is 125,000 to 250,000 XP, and 180,000 fits quite nicely in that range.

The baseline for the 11th level Fighter you threw out is 750,000 XP. That would be 375,000 per class for a F/MU. That gives us a 9/11 F/MU.

 

[Henry]

Ladies and Gentlemen, we need to drop back to "civil" out of "redline hostile."

Let's disagree, but dispense with personal attacks and assumptions, please.

 

[Henry]

Storm Raven, I assume you remember that a dual classing human couldn't use his old class until his new class' level exceeded the old one? And he gained no hp or anything until this happened? This included his saves and THAC0 (essentially his BAB, for those of you not around in them days).

Correction: He could, he just would not gain any XP for that adventure, and only half for that level.

 

[Storm Raven]

I just want to point out that multiclassed characters in earlier editions weren't the sum of their levels. They got half the hp, the best of their saving throws but not both put together, etc.

Sure, but it didn't really matter that they only got half the hit points from each class, because they got hit points from both classes. And their saves were invariably better than the saves of a single classed character, since they took the best for each.

To sum up: a multiclassed 1e/2e character took the best saves of both classes, the best THAC0, all of the class abilities of both classes, and had about the same number of hit points. All for the "cost" of lagging about a half level to one level behind due to the exponential structure of the experience point tables.

Better THAC0, better saves, almost as many hit points, double the class abilities. Where was the real drawback here?

Storm Raven, I assume you remember that a dual classing human couldn't use his old class until his new class' level exceeded the old one? And he gained no hp or anything until this happened? This included his saves and THAC0 (essentially his BAB, for those of you not around in them days).

Right, a time frame that, due to the exponential experience point tables took about one adventure. Yippie. A 7th level fighter, for example, who dual classed as a cleric, only needed enough experience points to advance from being 1st level to 2nd level as a normal 1st level cleric needed. Which meant (since he was adventuring with a bunch of 7th level characters), that his "lag time" would be about the amount of time they needed to advance a single level.

So, instead of becoming an 8th level fighter, he could become an 8th level cleric/7th level fighter in the amount of time it took his buddies to go from 7th level to 8th level (or thereabouts). In other words, almost no cost. And if things got too tough, he could use his previous classes abilities (he just would earn no experience points for using them).

And he kept his THAC0, his saves, and his hit points. And he could use them without penalty. So, suppose you wanted to dual class from fighter to cleric (fairly common choice). You still use armor, shields, cleric weapons, and so on. Your THAC0 was that of your previous fighter level, your hit points were the same as you had already gained. Effectively, you are a better fighting cleric than any single classed cleric could be at that level, all for no cost to you at that point. When your 7th level Fighter/4th level dual classed cleric runs out of spells, he can still swing a mace around while carrying a large shield and clad in full plate just as well as any 7th level fighter could, and suffers no penalty for doing so.

Also, you were done advancing in your first class- there was no going back.

Which is why you picked a class and went to a "break point" before switching. Not a big deal. Usually people advanced for a few levels as a fighter, then then switched to their real class, basically adding a bunch of hit points, the ability to use a lot of weapons, and so on before they switched to their "real" class.

 

[National Acrobat]

I don't think that any version of the game is balanced really. I mean if characters don't roll stats as good as others then that is a moot point. I run a 1E and a 3E game and in both cases I have characters who have stats that are much worse than others. In the 1E game however, the 8's and 9's don't affect them like they do in 3E. I have a character in the 3E game with all 11's and a 12, and a character with 2 8's and a 9 and they certainly don't have as easy a time as the others, but everyone rolled using the same method, so everyone had the same chance. In the 1E game I have a cleric with a 16 wisdom and everything else are 9's and 10's but it doesn't affect him as bad.

Plus in my new 1E game I have 4 humans and 1 half-elf, and no multiclassed characters, so I guess that's a bit different than traditional players of a 1E game.

 

[Storm Raven]

I don't think that any version of the game is balanced really. I mean if characters don't roll stats as good as others then that is a moot point. I run a 1E and a 3E game and in both cases I have characters who have stats that are much worse than others.

There is a simple solution for this in 3e: point buy.

 

[FrankTrollman]

Actually, in 1st Edition, that would make it 400 times as large.

Well, closer to 1,200 times as large in 1st edition. The density of copper is about a third of that of gold. Since all coins are the same weight - copper coins have three times the volume.

They could be 3 times as thick, or just 44% larger in every direction - it's not important.

-Frank

 

[diaglo]

Your assumptions are ireelevant and inaccurate.

and your use of using what you want and ignoring what you don't is amusing. you want a broken 1ed game. so you use the rules accordingly. just like people can do with the newer editions.

you compare based on xps. and use the xp charts of the classes. and then you want to base it on what is "equal and or balanced" vs classes.

i gave you the formula for comparing the ECL of a multiclass which is really want you want to use. not one for one xp comparison when you use 1edADnD.