I like 3E, but I miss...

[WizarDru]

Create Spawn (Su): Any humanoid reduced to Strength 0 by a shadow becomes a shadow under the control of its killer within 1d4 rounds.

Right, and since " If a shadow companion is destroyed, or the shadowdancer chooses to dismiss it, the shadowdancer must attempt a DC 15 Fortitude save. If the saving throw fails, the shadowdancer loses 200 experience points per shadowdancer level. A successful saving throw reduces the loss by half, to 100 XP per prestige class level. The shadowdancer’s XP total can never go below 0 as the result of a shadow’s dismissal or destruction. A destroyed or dismissed shadow companion cannot be replaced for 30 days."

That shadow dancer is going to be a vegetable after a single cleric of Pelor comes along and destroys all those kobold shadows.

Wildshape, Polymorph, and Shapechange in 3.5 all grant the type of the form. A Druid who wildshapes into an animal is an Animal, and Awaken targets any animal.

Nowhere in the rules does it say an animal who can cast Awaken cannot cast it on himself.

True. But now the druid is permanently transformed into a magical beast or animated plant (and can't wildshape back to his original form), if you wanted to be literal. But that would ignore the text that says things like "An awakened tree or animal can speak one language that you know, plus one additional language that you know per point of Intelligence bonus (if any)." Which makes it clear that the animal/tree and you are two separate entities...requiring you to play sophistry games again.

And forgetting the logical progression of things with the Djinn, Planar Binding still requires you to get the Djinni to help you...he can't be compelled to give you those wishes. Good Luck with that.

 

[FrankTrollman]

I'm missing where you got that from, frankly. Even the unerattaed version of the spell doesn't indicate that you get it's equipment. Trying to use sophistry to imply that since it says you gain the Balor's attacks that you get it's magical equipment is more than a little bit of a stetch. I'd say you're the one using the house-rules, actually.

That's a great come-back - but Balors have a Supernatural Ability to have a Vorpal Sword. You get Supernatural Abilities, and items removed from your body remain. Everyone I've talked to (including myself) agrees that this doesn't work - but the rules as written unambiguously give this the A-OK.

The same applies to the other things you've mentioned. Given that the ShadowDancer entry specifically mentions how many shadows she can have, you're the one house-ruling, again.

I never mentioned the Shadow Dancer. I'm talking about Create Undead and Control Undead. You control the Shadow you create - which is the one right out of the Monster Manual. The Monster Manual Shadow has no limit on how many times it can use its Create Spawn ability. It controls everything it makes from Create Spawn - which can come out of any Creature (which is darn near anything).

In closing - if you make a broad statement about how you aren't using House Rules, and then get written rules wrong in a subsequent post then you manifestly are using House Rules. House Rules is any time you do things in-game different from how they are written in the books. Whether that's from a deliberate choice to change the rules or blatant ignorance of what the books say is irrelevent - you are House Ruling either way.

Nowhere does it say in the Shapechange spell that you keep Su abilities when the spell ends or when you Shapechange to something else, so the sword disappears when you change back.

Actually - it doesn't have to. The Vorpal Sword remains for exactly the same reason that Poison remains toxic in enemy veins after you transform. Anything removed from you retains its shape indefinately.

The way most groups get around this is by houseruling the Vorpal Sword into equipment instead of a transferable Supernatural Ability. Mine certainly does. But that is a House Rule, and in no way supported by the rules.

From the SRD: You awaken a tree or animal to humanlike sentience.
If you already have humanlike sentience, then you just wasted 250 xp.

Are you saying that a Druid Polymorphed into a Frog cannot Wildshape into a Tiger because it turns you into an Animal? Because nowhere else in the rules does the game work like you describe.

As soon as you need to pull out a bizzare, one-use, interpretation of the rules which calls upon words to mean something that they don't mean anything else - you are making a House Rule.

And of course, once you've done that it's easier and more fair to simply House Rule that the combination doesn't work. The Awaken Spell does not say that it requires a target of animal intelligence, and even if it did you could still get the benefits after hitting your friend with a Feeblemind. But you can and have House Ruled the game into not allowing the combo.

And there's nothing wrong with that. No rules system is ever going to be perfect. The fact that you can get by with Core Rules D&D with less than 20 total House Rules is a testament to a workable system.

1st Edition required literally hundreds - remembering of course that anywhere the rules weren't clear required a House Rule before the game could even commence.

-Frank

 

[Hypersmurf]

Did you ever play the communications game in school where the teacher has written a sentence on a 3 x 5 card, he shows the card to the first student, the student then whispers the sentence to the second student and the whispering goes all around the classroom until the last student stands up and says what the message is.

By the time you go through several levels, your orders will be all confused.

Except that you're under a couple of limitations there:

1. You have to whisper, and
2. You only get one try.

Watch any submarine movie, with orders, repetition of orders, confirmation of orders. Tell your Boss Shadow to make sure they have it right.

They can't speak intelligibly, but they are under control.

If you get paranoid about it, every few generations pick a random sample, cast Rary's Telepathic Bond, and check they've got it straight. As long as they get the "Obey the Wizard!" order, you can feed them anything else they need verbally.

You can speak intelligibly.

First sentence of the spell. "You awaken a tree or animal to humanlike sentience." If you already have humanlike sentience, then obviously the spell won't do anything.

Why?

The spell simply confirms your state of humanlike sentience, and then all the other effects of being an awakened animal take place. Your type changes to Magical Beast, you gain Hit Dice, etc, etc... and then you Wildshape into an Animal again and repeat.

Nowhere does it say in the Shapechange spell that you keep Su abilities when the spell ends or when you Shapechange to something else, so the sword disappears when you change back.

Except Shapechange specifically says that anything you drop remains when you change. If you Houserule Balors to allow them to drop their swords, the sword remains when you change back.

Yeah, but if your shadow dies, then you have an army of shadows to deal with.

Yup. So every few generations, once you're sure the command to obey you has been passed on properly, you send the oldest active generation down into the middle of a mountain to wait. They're incorporeal and undead, so they can hide forever. There's still a chance someone will hunt them down and destroy them, but in the middle of a huge lump of solid rock, it's much harder...

-Hyp.

 

[Hypersmurf]

That shadow dancer is going to be a vegetable after a single cleric of Pelor comes along and destroys all those kobold shadows.

Well, firstly, Shadowdancer's companion shadows can't create spawn. But even if they could, only the three he gets as class features are shadow companions. All the others would just be spawn-of-shadow-companions, and wouldn't cost him XP.

But since they can't create spawn, that's irrelevant.

True. But now the druid is permanently transformed into a magical beast or animated plant (and can't wildshape back to his original form), if you wanted to be literal.

What on earth makes you say that?

And forgetting the logical progression of things with the Djinn, Planar Binding still requires you to get the Djinni to help you...he can't be compelled to give you those wishes. Good Luck with that.

Hmm? You can force him to comply with an opposed Cha check...?

-Hyp.

 

[Pants]

Except Shapechange specifically says that anything you drop remains when you change. If you Houserule Balors to allow them to drop their swords, the sword remains when you change back.

True. However, the Sword is still listed as a Su ability and You gain all extraordinary and supernatural abilities (both attacks and qualities) of the assumed form, but you lose your own supernatural abilities. You lose it, even if it's not attached to your body, its still an Su ability.

Yup. So every few generations, once you're sure the command to obey you has been passed on properly, you send the oldest active generation down into the middle of a mountain to wait. They're incorporeal and undead, so they can hide forever. There's still a chance someone will hunt them down and destroy them, but in the middle of a huge lump of solid rock, it's much harder...

-Hyp.

Then you're left with a milling mass of shadows that you can't control anymore. Wow, great. And considering the low intellect of the average shadow, long complicated orders will confuse it and will lead to misunderstandings.

 

[Hypersmurf]

True. However, the Sword is still listed as a Su ability and You gain all extraordinary and supernatural abilities (both attacks and qualities) of the assumed form, but you lose your own supernatural abilities. You lose it, even if it's not attached to your body, its still an Su ability.

By that logic, poison and implanted eggs would cease to function when you change back... and they're pretty much the whole point of the detached-stuff-remains clause.

Then you're left with a milling mass of shadows that you can't control anymore.

Not at all. The last thing their master said to them before going into hiding was "Do what that guy tells you", so they're bound to follow your instructions.

-Hyp.

 

[Creamsteak]

Just talking about the original topic at hand...

I've only played OD&D and 3e. A friend brought over OD&D books, and I was natural choice for DM about 4 years ago. We played one of the best campaigns I can remember having. Death everywhere, blood, guts, treasure, made up items, huge fun...

3e feels better as a player, but from my DMing perspective I found OD&D much more fun to DM. I didn't feel bad to just come up with rules off the top of my head in that version, whereas in 3e theres a right way to handle so many things that I felt like I had to know all the rules.

 

[Pants]

Actually - it doesn't have to. The Vorpal Sword remains for exactly the same reason that Poison remains toxic in enemy veins after you transform. Anything removed from you retains its shape indefinately.

Hm, I never thought of the poison issue...

Are you saying that a Druid Polymorphed into a Frog cannot Wildshape into a Tiger because it turns you into an Animal? Because nowhere else in the rules does the game work like you describe.

No I'm not saying that, and I have no idea where you got that from.

As soon as you need to pull out a bizzare, one-use, interpretation of the rules which calls upon words to mean something that they don't mean anything else - you are making a House Rule.

Actually, I call it being anal retentive because as soon as someone starts twisting the rules like that, I'm gonna make darn sure that I read the ability. In the case of Awakening yourself, it says that it raises you to human-like sentience right and if you already have human-like sentience, then it can't raise you to anything. It may be anal retentive, but it is by the rules

And of course, once you've done that it's easier and more fair to simply House Rule that the combination doesn't work. The Awaken Spell does not say that it requires a target of animal intelligence, and even if it did you could still get the benefits after hitting your friend with a Feeblemind. But you can and have House Ruled the game into not allowing the combo.

Nope, not really, because I haven't changed the spell at all, I'm just reading it.

And there's nothing wrong with that. No rules system is ever going to be perfect. The fact that you can get by with Core Rules D&D with less than 20 total House Rules is a testament to a workable system.

And I agree, I have no problem with House Rules, I just take issue with the Awaken spell workaround.
Shapechange still sucks, even if you don't allow the Balor/Sword thing and I'm still trying to find a way to make it less abusable.

Not at all. The last thing their master said to them before going into hiding was "Do what that guy tells you", so they're bound to follow your instructions.

-Hyp.

This is, by far, the dumbest and cheesiest way to break a spell. If there was ever a reason to suggest that 3e is videogamey, then this is that example. Ugh, it boggles the mind and it rivals the 'bag of rats' crap.
If anyone ever brought this up to me, I'd hit them with a shovel.

 

[WhatKu]

Things I miss about 2ed:
People not constantly whining about either 3.5/3.0. I wasnt around for the 1st/2nd shift, but it seems there is a massive amount of "2nd ed was better because...." people. Rawr.

 

[Hypersmurf]

In the case of Awakening yourself, it says that it raises you to human-like sentience right and if you already have human-like sentience, then it can't raise you to anything.

That doesn't prevent the spell taking effect.

3E Divine Power granted a cleric an Enhancement bonus to Strength sufficient to raise his Strength to 18. If his Strength was 20, that didn't mean he wasn't a valid target for the spell - as long as he satisfied "Target: Personal", he could cast the spell, and it would come into effect, and last for one round per level.

If you cast Blindness on someone who has the "blinded" condition, the spell still comes into effect. If their pre-existing condition was temporary, and wears off... too bad, they're still blind from the spell.

As long as someone satisfies "Target: animal or tree touched", they can be awakened. Even if they already have humanlike sentience, they are now "awakened", and all the consequences of that occur.

-Hyp.