I saw the MATRIX 2 thread SPOILERS ABOUND

[WizarDru]

A question:
They show 250,000 squids out in force against Zion.
What exactly does Zion have to defend itself?
Have they detailed that anywhere?
Cause it sure seems to me that with the power the machines have (that 250k is not all the forces they have), they should be able to slaughter the humans without trying too hard.

Have they even shown how a ship can take out a SQUID?
I presumed the EMP was a last-gasp measure, not THE way they end up taking out one of the 250K arrayed against them.

On the Animatrix, the first video is "The Last Flight of the Osiris", detailing how the doomed ship Osiris discovers that Zion is under attack and how they let pass on the message to a drop point (which is retrieved in the game, and presented in the movie). As they're running from squids, they have two gunners with what appear to be large-shelled machine gun emplacements. They destroy several squids this way, but it's clear that it's a losing effort. The guns are good for taking out a few squids, but the EMP is much more effective, due to their speed, toughness and manueverability.

Further, in 'Reloaded', you see some of the defenses at Zion, and they include men in battle-suits with what are probably rail-guns, and large gun emplacements at the fortifications. But against an unrelenting onslaught of machines that don't know fear, they will only hold for so long.

I think, though I don't know, that the Machines are also very energy dependent. If the loss of the sunlight caused by "Operation: Dark Storm" (as seen in the Animatrix) caused them that much trouble, they may be very conservative when it comes to power expenditures...and it's clear that they expend a great deal of it. Further, while they are alien in their thinking, it's clear the machines, in the past, were willing to co-exist and had a desire to live...thus, they may not want to accept the losses taken unless they're certain of victory. Consider also that the machines are clearly not all in agreement about all things...the Oracle, architect, twins and Merovignian show that, I think.

Here's a question that I've been wondering about, though: If the architect is telling the truth (and I'm not convinced entirely that he is...especially since he may be lying by omission or intentionally misleading), then Zion has been cleared five times prior to this, right? If so, then did they cover up their previous tunnels, or does Zion move? The huge earth-moving process is a hell of a thing, and would be even more difficult to cover up, I'd imagine, and be pretty noticable if they did.

 

[JacktheRabbit]

Here's a question that I've been wondering about, though: If the architect is telling the truth (and I'm not convinced entirely that he is...especially since he may be lying by omission or intentionally misleading), then Zion has been cleared five times prior to this, right? If so, then did they cover up their previous tunnels, or does Zion move? The huge earth-moving process is a hell of a thing, and would be even more difficult to cover up, I'd imagine, and be pretty noticable if they did.

You are assuming that the machines destroy Zion the same way each time.

 

[randomling]

This may be incoherent, but I'm just making notes as I go along. Just saw the film for the first time today and trying to make sense of it in my little brain.

Elder Concilman is talking to Neo before the Oracle calls him and tell him that humans need machines just like machines need humans. Elder Councliman is a former The One. He is the last one who made the choice to go to the source and restart everything. He knew that Neo was going to be faced with the upcoming choice and was trying to give him the advice to choose to restart. He evidentally can't say he is The One because then everyone wouldn't believe in the Prophecy and it wouldn't work. And to make it go even further the Council is made up of the last survivours of the original 24, (the One + 23 others). That is why the chose to help Neo and Morpheus instead of the logical thing which would be too defend the city. The know about the prophecy and must help move it along or everything will come to an end.

That's an interesting theory, but I recall Morpheus saying (way back in the first movie) that the original (or rather previous) One is (long) dead. The position of Morpheus and the Oracle is that Neo is the reincarnation of the previous guy. I don't think that's possible if he's still alive, even in Buddhism!

Oracle: Not too bright, though. You know why Morpheus brought you to see me?
Neo: I think so.
Oracle: So, what do you think? You think you're the one?
Neo: I don't know.
Oracle: You know what that means? It's Latin. Means `Know thyself'. I'm going to let you in on a little secret. Being the one is just like being in love. No one can tell you your in love, you just know it. Through and through. Balls to bones. Well, I better have a look at you. Open your mouth, say Ahhh.
Neo: Ahhh.
Oracle: Okay. Now I'm supposed to say, `Umm, that's interesting, but...' then you say...
Neo: But what?
Oracle: But you already know what I'm going to tell you.
Neo: I'm not the one.
Oracle: Sorry kiddo. You got the gift, but it looks like you're waiting for something.
Neo: What?
Oracle: Your next life maybe, who knows? That's the way these things go.

Always thought this was an interesting sequence, especially considering how the rest of the movie pans out. Important phrases from this scene that stand out for me:

Oracle: Being the one is just like being in love.

And:

Oracle: Sorry kiddo. You got the gift, but it looks like you're waiting for something.
Neo: What?
Oracle: Your next life maybe, who knows? That's the way these things go.

Combine this with the Oracle's prophecy to Trinity: that one day she would fall in love, and that man would be the one. It seems to me that it's the love between Neo and Trinity that makes him (them?) the one. Love (a kiss) returns Neo to life... his "next life", as the one. In the second movie, his love for Trinity is both his great strength and his great weakness. That's why I originally thought of the Matrix as a fairtale; it is Neo's journey of self-discovery (down the rabbit hole!) which ends up in him finding true love and, in the process, his true self. (Awwww.)

 

[Welverin]

Well I saw it again yesterday and thought I?d mention a few things I noticed that relate to things that have been discussed already.

First the Oracle refers to the Merovingian as a program combined with what the Architect says about Neo I think it?s clear both of them are what they appear to be, a program and a human (respectively).

The Oracle told Neo that ?We have to work together for the future? (or some such), it?s the we part I think is significant because it would go along with the councilman?s conversation with Neo about humans and machines needing each other. This all adds up to the solution to everything beings something other than the destruction of the matrix or resetting it (the two options the Architect gave Neo). So I see this as foreshadowing of Neo?s leading humans and machines to living and working together in a more agreeable fashion (as other have already mentioned).

Next thing, Smith didn?t want anything from Neo, he wanted to take from Neo, what Neo tried to take from him, purpose. The way I interpret it is that when Neo blew Smith apart at the end of the first movie Smith ceased to be an agent (and therefore no longer had a purpose), this made him an unhappy camper and so he decided to do the same thing to Neo.

Finally, I think, I have the right quote for Morpheus at the end when the Neb goes kablooey. ?I dreamed a dream, but now that dream is gone.?

 

[Datt]

That's an interesting theory, but I recall Morpheus saying (way back in the first movie) that the original (or rather previous) One is (long) dead. The position of Morpheus and the Oracle is that Neo is the reincarnation of the previous guy. I don't think that's possible if he's still alive, even in Buddhism!

I have been thinking about this. The former One would probably be considered dead because when he restarts the Matrix he ceases to be the One. Of course the Oracle is going to say that the One is dead, waiting for the next one to come along and do everything over again. I watched it again last night in IMAX, wow!, and when Coucilor Hamann and Neo are talking Neo they are talking about young and old. Neo says "Is that why there are no young people on the Council?" Councilor Hamann just smiles at that. But if for some reason Hamann isn't a former One I say he is definitely one of the 23 that restarted Zion, as is the whole council.

 

[kingpaul]

Alright, I've seen it twice now. Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Morpheus say that Zion had been around for a 100 years or so during the prayer? If so, and if Hanan is one of the original 23, he'd be over 100 years now. If he is, I want to look so good when reach that age I do.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

I believe he only said they would have fought the fight for 100 years "now". This does not mean Zion does already exist 100 years...

Mustrum Ridcully

 

[Endur]

SPOILERS

Great sequel.

Some thoughts.

When NEO stopped the machines, this was after he had entered the Machine's main frame.

When he entered the Main Frame, the Architect offered to allow him to return to the matrix and watch the human race die or to allow the matrix to be recreated. He chose to return to the matrix and rescue Trinity.

Which means that when he entered the main frame, he did something that changed his body. Maybe he doesn't need to plug in directly anymore. Maybe he subconsciously hacked the Machine's main frame and can now turn off Sentinels and other machines.

My predictions:

Given Neo's demonstration, Neo will defeat the 250k sentinel army. Either directly or through what he has done to the mainframe.

Neo's primary antagonist in the next movie will be Agent Smith. Smith appearently downloaded himself into humans that are plugged into the matrix. The real threat is that Smith will attempt to assimulate every human being plugged into the matrix.

Those that aren't plugged into the matrix, Smith will attempt to kill. As he attempted to sabotage the force that was counter-attacking the Sentinels by setting off an EMP early.

Tom

 

[Bagpuss]

In Enter the Matrix they explain that the battle plan is to array the ship in a defensive line ahead of the machines and they trigger the ship's EMP simultaniously to knock out all the machines attacking Zion at once. The game also makes it pretty clear that they don't think it will be successful.

 

[Quasqueton]

Just saw the movie for the 3rd time. Here's something I thought I noticed the 2nd time, but have now confirmed it. Maybe not a big thing, but interesting, I thought.

At the end of Reloaded, Neo is lying in a coma on the table in the ship's infirmiry. In the trailer for Revolutions, after the credits of Reloaded, we see Neo lying on a surface. He opens his eyes as if waking up suddenly. His hair and clothes are as he looks when in the matrix.

So, this looks to me like Neo's coma is because he is jacked into the matrix without the need of the ship's gear.

And I still think the "real world" is really just another level of the matrix.

Quasqueton