I see Skip's redefined Polymorph again...

[Darrin Drader]

So you are saying that when the text talks about a creature's "hit points" that term does not inculde bonus hit points gained from Con, correct?

In almost all cases but polymorph, the distinction isn't necessary. If a creature hits you, it isn't necessary to say that it deals 1d6 points of Hit Points and/or bonus Hit Points. When you start changing the creature's Con, then it becomes an important distinction. Sadly, the rules, as they are written, make this about as clear as mud. With the relatively low number of Con based skills, there would be almost no point in changing your Con score at all if your total number of Hit Points were not supposed to change.

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

If you want a balanced game (with appropriate challenges based upon the ECL/CR of the monsters present), don't change the hit points. You get too much bang out of your buck if you change the hit points. A lowely wizard can become a melee killing machine. A druid becomes the highest hp character in the game. Too much for 1 4th level spell.

If you want a higher power game with excessive use of this spell, change the hit points. It'll become a crutch in your games to see all the PCs constantly walking around in polymorphed form, but if you like it, do it.

I generally agree that balance for a particular campaign is the way to go.

I think it was a fundamental mistake use the same description for both Wildshape and Polymorph. Allowing a Druid to gain the 19 Con of a Dire Bear is one thing. Allow a Wizard to have the 23 Con of a Troll is quite another.

What are these superabusive forms you worry about so much? I have a low level gnome druid with a 16 Con and I am not seeing the big HP benefit? Please help me powergame better!

 

[Camarath]

In almost all cases but polymorph, the distinction isn't necessary. If a creature hits you, it isn't necessary to say that it deals 1d6 points of Hit Points and/or bonus Hit Points. When you start changing the creature's Con, then it becomes an important distinction. Sadly, the rules, as they are written, make this about as clear as mud. With the relatively low number of Con based skills, there would be almost no point in changing your Con score at all if your total number of Hit Points were not supposed to change.

So you are saying that the rules use "hit points" differently in Alter self than they do in other rules such as this one.

LOSS OF HIT POINTS
The most common way that your character gets hurt is to take lethal damage and lose hit points
What Hit Points Represent: Hit points mean two things in the game world: the ability to take physical punishment and keep going, and the ability to turn a serious blow into a less serious one.
Effects of Hit Point Damage: Damage doesn’t slow you down until your current hit points reach 0 or lower. At 0 hit points, you’re disabled.

Here the term "hit points" is use to mean both what you say Alter Self uses that term to mean and what you call bonus hit points. I find that other rules use hit point in a way that is constant with the use of hit points in this rule and see not reason why hit points should mean anything else when use in Alter Self.

 

[Caliban]

So you are saying that the rules use "hit points" differently in Alter self than they do in other rules such as this one.

LOSS OF HIT POINTS
The most common way that your character gets hurt is to take lethal damage and lose hit points
What Hit Points Represent: Hit points mean two things in the game world: the ability to take physical punishment and keep going, and the ability to turn a serious blow into a less serious one.
Effects of Hit Point Damage: Damage doesn’t slow you down until your current hit points reach 0 or lower. At 0 hit points, you’re disabled.

Here the term "hit points" is use to mean both what you say Alter Self uses that term to mean and what you call bonus hit points. I find that other rules use hit point in a way that is constant with the use of hit points in this rule and see not reason why hit points should mean anything else when use in Alter Self.

The rules do define an "Effective hit point increase" on page 308 of the PHB. It's when your Con is temporarily modified.

What does Polymorph do? Temporarily modify your Con.
What doesn't Alter Self do? Change your Con (or any other stat).

Hmm... Perhaps that is why the Alter Self spell says your hit points don't change (because the alter self spell can't change hit points). Odd that.

As written in the PHB, it seems to be within the spirit and the letter of the rules that Polymorph can modif your hit points, while Alter Self cannot.

However, the recent errata to the DMG seems to indicate otherwise, because it says you retain your original hit points. This might be a mistake in the errata, as the mention of Hit Points is among a list of attributes. The Sage's recent ruling makes that seem more likely.

 

[Zodar]

To me it seems that it might be helpful to look at the spell(s) as they were in 3.0e.

Under Polymorph Other it says:

The subject retains its Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma scores, level and class, hit points (despite any change in its Constitution score), alignment, base attack bonus, and base saves. (New Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution scores may affect final attack and save bonuses.)

Under Polymorph Self it says see polymorph other

I believe that when going to 3.5e Wizards just forgot this in the new spell description. (Just like all the other stuff that's been errata'd)

Regards,

Zodar, King of Zod

 

[Thanee]

However, the recent errata to the DMG seems to indicate otherwise, because it says you retain your original hit points. This might be a mistake in the errata, as the mention of Hit Points is among a list of attributes. The Sage's recent ruling makes that seem more likely.

Doh! That's why I couldn't find it... it wasn't in the FAQ, but the DMG errata... now that you say it...

Polymorphed creatures gain the Strength, Dexterity, and
Constitution of their new forms, as well as size, extraordinary
special attacks, movement capabilities (to a maximum of 120
feet for flying and 60 for nonflying movement), natural
armor bonus, natural weapons, racial skill bonuses, and other
gross physical qualities such as appearance and number of
limbs. They retain their original class and level, Intelligence,
Wisdom, Charisma, hit points, base attack bonus, base save
bonuses, and alignment.

However, someone posted on this board, that a designer has clarified this to mean "base hit points", I'm pretty sure, but can't tell you where.

Of course, "base hit points" don't exist in D&D as such, but that's another matter...

Bye
Thanee

 

[Li Shenron]

I have played Polymorph and Wild Shape in both ways over time, I don't think it makes that huge difference.

HPs gained from increased Con are not real HPs since they go away but they still have a benefit for druids since Wild Shape lasts much longer than Polymorph.

Allowing the new Con to affect HPs makes some creatures/forms more useful and other less useful, that's all. Maybe the only issue could be that a high-level druid with Natural spell could afford to have a very low Con and stay wildshaped all day long to make up for it. Until someone dispels her WS.

To be honest, I am much more bothered by the irregularity of which abilities (nat/ex/su/sp) are granted by the new form and which abilities are kept from the original form, by the different spells of the chain: Disguise Self, Alter Self, Polymorph, Polymorph any object, Shapechange.
By the rules, an Dwarf/Elf wizard (who naturally has darkvision/low-light vision) can alter_self into a member of his own race or even into himself, but loses darkvision/low-light vision when doing so because it's a racial extraordinary ability :\

 

[youspoonybard]

Maybe the only issue could be that a high-level druid with Natural spell could afford to have a very low Con and stay wildshaped all day long to make up for it. Until someone dispels her WS.

Can't Dispel SU abilities.

 

[Li Shenron]

Can't Dispel SU abilities.

Right, was looking at the table and not the description.

 

[3d6]

Hmm... Perhaps that is why the Alter Self spell says your hit points don't change (because the alter self spell can't change hit points). Odd that.

If the "hit points don't change" clause wasn't in there, there would be circumstances under which your hit points would change. For example, a Medium construct wizard changing into a Large construct wizard would gain 10 hit points. So it's not like that clause doesn't do anything.