I see Skip's redefined Polymorph again...

[mikebr99]

When the druidess IMC wild shaped, her AC dropped by at least 10 points. Plus, since she was a gnome with an 18 CON, her CON rarely went up. When she wild shaped she got slaughtered but did way more damage. It was brutal to watch her pounce and tear apart one monster only to be rended apart by the next one. She didn't do it much.


Aaron

CON is fairly low on the priority list for a Druid build IMO... YMMV.
But having said that... A druid built the way you noted above, assuming the WIS was higher then the CON, and being a straight up caster, is a very viable character.

Mike

 

[youspoonybard]

The best combat forms weren't the biggest ones, necessarily...

You really had to study the MM. Caster birds were great. If you understood how Constrict worked, it was crazy. And Elemental Wild Shape, although a later ability, was always crazy in 3.0.

It's like...the class ability that lets you do ANYTHING. Need to sneak around? Wild Shape. Fast Mobility? Wild Shape. Fly speed? Blindsight? Scent? Swim? Burrow? Wild Shape. And it wasn't like a Cleric's domain, where you only got to pick two domains that you are stuck with. No burning spells, either, although Natural Spell let you do that while shaped. Wild Armor kept your AC decent, either that or 1 monk level. Wild Shape was adaptable and powerful. The only other ability that came close was Bardic Music. But it took a lot of work.

It still does, but there are so many Druid buffs, and Wild Shape buffs.

But yeah, the ability was still crazy in 3.0. It wasn't as obvious though.

 

[Nail]

heh... I know you're trolling Nail... but I'll take the bait.

Hee, hee! Gotcha!

As most of you know, this subject has been discussed several times, at length. Perhaps those of us that have already discussed this should abstain?.....

Nah.

The polymorphing rules are based on Alter Self. Alter Self doesn't alter your hit points. Q.E.D.

Besides, that interpretation simplifies book-keeping, and balances the power of the spell.

 

[Thanee]

But yeah, the ability was still crazy in 3.0. It wasn't as obvious though.

Guess it was just overshadowed by polymorph other.

What an insane spell...

Bye
Thanee

 

[Iku Rex]

Sorry IR... what are you trying to say here??

You said: "Polymorph isn't changing your CON..."

Then you said: ...alter your current totals for hps, concentration, & FORT etc."

If your Con doesn't change, then "hps, concentration, & FORT etc", which are, according to the rules, based on your Con, don't change either.

The rules say alter self doesn't give you the stats of your new form, polymorph does give you the STR, CON, & DEX.

Actually, the rules say that you retain your Str, Dex and Con. According to you, retaining your Con doesn't mean that you don't get a new Con. Therefore, according to you, alter self doesn't say whether or not you get a new Con from the spell.

Do you allow the polymorpher extra damage from the new forms STR, which would be better then your old STR?

Do you change the character's FORT save while in a different form (polymorphed)?

Do you change the reflex save of the character while in a different form (polymorphed)?

Of course. Why wouldn't I? No rule say that these remain the same...

Where is it written that the polymorpher gets all the benifits of the new STR, DEX & CON... except a new HP current total?

(The rule in polymorph doesn't refer to "current hit points" (a defined game term). It refers to your maximum hit points when undamaged. This is obvious, since the spell heals some damage when you change, possibly changing your current hit points.)

It is written in alter self, the DMG, the MM and (indirectly) Complete Warrior. I quoted the relevant rules in the earlier post you claimed to have read.

 

[mikebr99]

Hee, hee! Gotcha!

you did...

As most of you know, this subject has been discussed several times, at length. Perhaps those of us that have already discussed this should abstain?.....

Nah.

Exactly... this continues to be one of the best topics... over and over again.

The polymorphing rules are based on Alter Self. Alter Self doesn't alter your hit points. Q.E.D.

Besides, that interpretation simplifies book-keeping, and balances the power of the spell.

Now... you're baiting me again

However, I think my posts above disproves the 1st... YMMV

And we all live to change stuff... buffing etc. math is in our blood, so book-keeping isn't an issue for me... again... YMMV

And balance issues are also n/a as the tit-for-tat rules apply.


Mike

 

[mikebr99]

You said: "Polymorph isn't changing your CON..."

Then you said: ...alter your current totals for hps, concentration, & FORT etc."

Right... your old CON stays with your old form. So keep track of your base hps, minus any current damage... and simply add your new form's CON modifier (+ or -) and any healing gained from polymorphing... to get your current hp total.

If your Con doesn't change, then "hps, concentration, & FORT etc", which are, according to the rules, based on your Con, don't change either.
Actually, the rules say that you retain your Str, Dex and Con. According to you, retaining your Con doesn't mean that you don't get a new Con. Therefore, according to you, alter self doesn't say whether or not you get a new Con from the spell.

Alter self states: "You retain your own ability scores...", which I think I've quoted already.

I quoted the relevant rules in the earlier post you claimed to have read.

I have... and I guess we'll have to agree, to disagree. This has been fun though.


Mike

 

[RangerWickett]

Hmm. In my game, I'll do this. Your current hit points won't change, but your max hit points will. So if you want to wildshape your Constitution 8 20th level druid into a bear, you'll need a lot of healing to take advantage of those extra hundred hit points.

Note this is different from the way I wrote transforming in Elements of Magic. In those rules, the forms you can assume are balanced by CR, and CR includes the creature's hit points, so you get to either keep your current HP, or get the new form's HP if it's higher.

Dude, now I really wanna play a Monk 1/Druid 19 with vow of poverty.

 

[jgsugden]

As an FYI: This has been argued over and over and over again. Check old threads and you'll find a thorough set of arguments for each side of the situation.

Nobody is going to 'win' this argument. A significant number of people will disagree with the 'majority' opinion. There are strong arguments on both sides. You just have to decide how you'll do it until ERRATA is released (not Sage Advice that many people doubt) that states specifically and completely clearly that hit points do or do not change as a result of a change in constitution from polymorph.

If you want a balanced game (with appropriate challenges based upon the ECL/CR of the monsters present), don't change the hit points. You get too much bang out of your buck if you change the hit points. A lowely wizard can become a melee killing machine. A druid becomes the highest hp character in the game. Too much for 1 4th level spell.

If you want a higher power game with excessive use of this spell, change the hit points. It'll become a crutch in your games to see all the PCs constantly walking around in polymorphed form, but if you like it, do it.

 

[Beretta]

Do you allow the polymorpher extra damage from the new forms STR, which would be better then your old STR?

Do you change the character's FORT save while in a different form (polymorphed)?

Do you change the reflex save of the character while in a different form (polymorphed)?

Not to you IR specifically:
Where is it written that the polymorpher gets all the benifits of the new STR, DEX & CON... except a new HP current total?

Mike

It doesn't get any clearer than this as to why a polymorphed PC's hit points *would* change if their CON increased or decreased as a result.

Changing everything (attack bonus, damage bonus, ranged attck bonus, AC, Initiative modifier, Reflex saves, and Fortitude saves) due to altered stats, but leaving hit points as the only thing unchanged due to the modified stats makes absolutely no sense whatosever.