I think the D&D line needs a "Bridge" product

[ced1106]

This is my plan. Any comments?

I think the D&D Adventure was a good start. I think the simplified combat system was great. I would have preferred a campaign-style of scenarios, rather than several unrelated ones.

First set: Getting started
* Simplified combat
* Pregenerated characters
* Ready-to-play scenarios
* GM advice: Running combat and scenarios

Second set: Design it yourself
* Simplified combat
* Character generation rules
* Monster Manual
* DMG tables
* GM advice: NPCs and adventure design

Third set: Advanced stuff
* D&D combat
* Prestige classes

Actually, the third set is kinda superfluous with D&D itself, and the first would be as well if the D&D Adventure Game is still in print. I'd vote against sample adventures in each set, since many GMs prefer to design their own adventures and should be able to adapt D&D modules.

Heck. Nuts to the "learn D&D" stuff. I just wanna play a game without acronyms! Write a PHB that's D&D lite. Us GMs can do the rest!


Cedric.
aka. Washu! ^O^

 

[Ron]

I think the players handbook is all a player really needs to learn and understand d&d. While the PHB is 280 some pages over 100 of those pages are spells. Making it only 180 pages of actual rules. While that is still alot it is a manageble amount to read.

One hundred and eighty pages are still too many pages to be read by a novice player. Check most modern rpgs in the market and you will see that the actual rules are much shorter.

D&D 3E isn't a hard game to play. In fact of all the RPG's I've played (Shadowrun 3rd edition, In Nomine, Gurps, AD&D, Star Wars 2nd edition) d&d 3e is proably the best system and much easier to learn the basics of than Shadowrun or Gurps. I don't think we should dumb down what we have in the PHB maybe cut out some uneeded stuff and clarify some of it.

I disagree. D&D is a rules heavy game and a very hard one to learn. People usually mistake the fact that they are used to the rules with the simplicity of the game. It is very easy to a novice to create a D&D character, specially if he or she is not concerned in learning all differences between the classes. If you actually meet someone who actually want to now the details before choosing a class you'll find that D&D is much harder to them than a skill based game. I haven't played GURPS or Shadowrun for years, but there is a short basic version of GURPS that takes only 32 pages. A novice still has to go over the 180 pages of the PHB to learn how to play.

I don't think Wizards should publish a new line akin to the old D&D for novices. However, a bridge between the current introductory box and the PHB would be much welcome.

 

[Kilmore]

Barsoomcore, it pains me to disagree with such an elequent and well thought out post by an esteemed member of our boards.

(Here it comes...)

But remember, a goodly portion of the driving force of D&D players was spawned from the simple basic and expert sets of bygone days. Many seasoned DM's of today graduated from from the little red Otus and Elmore books. And the vast majority of "regular" D&D players made the move from those books to the "Advanced" system like emerging butterflies.

So yeah, a basic book may not be profitable in itself, but it could very well make Core Books more profitable, broaden our audience, and initiate a new generation of players. As long as it's obvious that something bigger and better awaits, the transition will be natural.

Just basing that off my experience.

 

[Thunhus]

Re: KDLadage

I really like your idea. I miss my OD&D years.
Comments:
I prefer keeping classes and races separated. I would limit number of classes and races. Keeping fighter, cleric, wizard, rogue and human, elf, halfling, dwarf in basic set. You could introduce new classes and races in expert and advanced sets.
I like idea of sample adventures. That will help newbies and gamers who have no time to do their own adventures.

Thunhus

 

[arwink]

Barsoomcore, it pains me to disagree with such an elequent and well thought out post by an esteemed member of our boards.

(Here it comes...)

But remember, a goodly portion of the driving force of D&D players was spawned from the simple basic and expert sets of bygone days. Many seasoned DM's of today graduated from from the little red Otus and Elmore books. And the vast majority of "regular" D&D players made the move from those books to the "Advanced" system like emerging butterflies.

So yeah, a basic book may not be profitable in itself, but it could very well make Core Books more profitable, broaden our audience, and initiate a new generation of players. As long as it's obvious that something bigger and better awaits, the transition will be natural.

Just basing that off my experience.

Er, I'm one of the above, and the only reason I moved on to AD&D was because they stopped supporting regular D&D. I'm sure there's a lot like me who would stop playing 3e if a more simplified version was brought out. hence, fractured market...

 

[Kilmore]

Here we go, start out with the character classes as normal, only your class is packaged with skills and feats appropriate for a mainstream character of that class.

For example: All fighters get (I dunno...how about) Cleave. Don't call it a feat or anything, it's just what fighters get. At third level, all their attacks with their favored weapon do two more points of damage (Wpn. Spec.). And go on from there.

If all else fails, there is always the classic "Bridge" product for the significant others: A deck of cards!

They can play "Bridge" while you play "D&D".

 

[Azzemmell]

Finally, far and away the best way to introduce anyone to D&D is to have them join a game. People don't have to know the rules to enjoy the game -- which is one of the hardest things to explain about it. My wife has NEVER cracked the PHB, and yet she's one of our group's great players.

Now she'll never buy anything from Wizards, but having her play sure makes it easier for ME to do so!

I agree wholeheartedly. My wife is the same; never looks in the PHB. The only time she opened it was when I helped her make a character. She, too, is one of the better roleplayers in my group.
Don't forget the last part... wife playing D&D = more books

 

[Olgar Shiverstone]

I agree this product is needed (see the D&D Lite thread from a month or two back ...). But, some caveats:

- It should definitely be a bridge game, that will (ultimately) drive sales of the PHB. No need for basic/expert/etc -- just one introductory set.

- It should be completely playable out of the box, with enough rules depth to allow multiple playings (ie, probably needs levelling rules).

- It needs a fast-play guide, with pre-written adventures, characters, etc. That way it can be played like a family board game -- open box, read a short set of rules, play. If written correctly, the rules should allow for character and adventure creation, so that once you're hooked, you can play a few more games of your own devising -- but to get more than low levels, say, you need the PHB.

- It should have an example of play. (I learned more from the example of play and example of combat in the D&D Basic Set, combined with the included module, than I did reading the entire rulebook the first two times).

I think that the D&D Adventure Game hit pretty close to the mark. It needs a few revisions to allow for more play (character advancement rules, in particular) -- but it is pretty good base model, along with the old D&D Basic boxed set.

Is it out of print? If so, though I'm sure it didn't make a lot of money, it's a shame. I think D&D needs a presence -- in some form -- on the board games shelf at regular toy/game stores to draw in new players, particularly with the revival fantasy is enjoying with the release of the Harry Potter and LotR movies.

 

[kengar]

If WOTC ever does a 4th edition, my number one request is that they organize the rules in a modular way: only the most basic rules required, with all other rules optional add-ons, similar to 3E psionics.

Actually, this was one of the things that GURPS did I found quite impressive. They give you the basics in just a couple chapters. There is also "Basic Combat" which runs much faster than advanced and is still logically consistent with the optional rules. The free GURPS Lite pdf is a great tool for players that don't want to invest in the whole book as well.

I am not a huge fan of playing GURPS (leads to an awful lot of min/max & rules lawyering, IME), but I have always admired the layout and organization of SJG's books and supplements.

 

[Dragongirl]

Not sure I care for how a number of posts in this thread seem to be saying that women are incapable of understanding the full rules of D&D. If you really want women to take more interest tell them more of the roleplaying instead of the fighting and monsters.

As for the old basic D&D I never liked it, and agree that it would be bad business for WOTC to put out a product like that. If you want to do it on your own have fun, but careful of the WOTC lawyers if you base it too much on their rules.