I think the D&D line needs a "Bridge" product

[barsoomcore]

If WOTC ever does a 4th edition, my number one request is that they organize the rules in a modular way: only the most basic rules required, with all other rules optional add-ons, similar to 3E psionics.

Now THERE'S an idea I can get behind. That's just smart design. It would be, as you say, extremely difficult for D&D, but okay, it's hard. It's still a good thing to do. The Combat section of the Player's Handbook right now is pretty dense. You have to really WANT to understand what it's trying to tell you.

The point here is that you're not creating competing product lines, you're just giving readers a better path into the complexities of the system. Good design.

 

[Geoffrey]

I agree with JeffB. Come Gen Con, the "core" rules of D&D will total almost 1,000(!) pages and cost almost $100.00(!). That's asinine.

The core rules of D&D should have the following characteristics:

1. Be only one book that covers the essentials of play up to 20th level.
2. Be no more than 128 pages.
3. Be no more than $20.

Everything else should be relegated to supplements and third party publishers.

There's no way in hell that the "core" rules of ANY game need to be anywhere near 1,000 pages long. If any designer says what I'm describing here isn't possible, then that designer isn't the man for the job. M. A. R. Barker did precisely what I'm describing here, and he did it 27 YEARS AGO! Why can't we do today what was successfully done over a quarter of a century ago? Have we really fallen so far?

 

[Aust Diamondew]

I think the players handbook is all a player really needs to learn and understand d&d. While the PHB is 280 some pages over 100 of those pages are spells. Making it only 180 pages of actual rules. While that is still alot it is a manageble amount to read.

D&D 3E isn't a hard game to play. In fact of all the RPG's I've played (Shadowrun 3rd edition, In Nomine, Gurps, AD&D, Star Wars 2nd edition) d&d 3e is proably the best system and much easier to learn the basics of than Shadowrun or Gurps. I don't think we should dumb down what we have in the PHB maybe cut out some uneeded stuff and clarify some of it.

 

[Walter_J]

I think there's a fundamental problem with the "D&D Lite" idea.

It's too expensive. You're basically talking about creating a separate game line, one with its own range of supporting products and marketing needs and design and everything. We had this for many years with "D&D" and "Advanced D&D" -- I think there's a reason Wizards hasn't gone down that path. It's a bad path.

Your "Lite" sales end up cannibalizing your "Advanced" sales. If the "Lite" game is fully functional then for many people it will be good enough for them to keep playing it -- why switch to Advanced? Remember, most people believe that the first version of any system they try, be it OS, Word Processor or whatever, is the best version. So all those potential new Advanced sales become Lite sales instead, and your Advanced sales begin to drop. Now what do you do? Do you create support materials for Lite, thus taking away resources for Advanced and alienating those players? Can you charge as much for Lite -- are your margins going to be as good? All these decisions, all this information needs to be acquired and the chances that you are going to make a mistake rise dramatically. It's very risky.

Recall Ryan Dancey's comment after he went through TSR's financials -- the only product that made money was the Player's Handbook. Everything else was a loss leader designed to drive sales of the PHB. So why create a whole new game that will reduce PHB sales? It's suicide.

I wonder how many people who are put off by D&D's complexity would EVER buy a PHB, regardless of how gently they were introduced to the game concepts.

Would your "better half" ever buy their own PHB? If not, then there's no value to Wizards in getting them to understand the game.

Finally, far and away the best way to introduce anyone to D&D is to have them join a game. People don't have to know the rules to enjoy the game -- which is one of the hardest things to explain about it. My wife has NEVER cracked the PHB, and yet she's one of our group's great players.

Now she'll never buy anything from Wizards, but having her play sure makes it easier for ME to do so!

You hit the nail on the head. Fracturing your own market is never a good idea.

 

[Walter_J]

Your system sounds very interesting! I look forward to hearing more about it. Being a d20 fan...I'd probably vote for d20.

Thanks for the vote of confidence! I dont' want to inadertantly (sp?) hijack anyone's thread, so I'll put more info out in the near future in another thread. What I'm shooting for is simple, yet open (not limiting character development by being too simple), quick start up, minimal prep time, GM optional (at least in the beginning. If someone gets the urge, they can always take over) and rules that don't hinder the imagination, particularly in the GM seat ("I want to do this, but how the heck do I explain the mechanics? And what if someone throws dispel magic?" etc...)

I love d20 too. I may not be able to do it due to license though. We'll see.

 

[KDLadage]

My business partner (Rich Bowman) and I have been discussing this recently. The idea would be to produce something along the lines of the old red-box Basic D&D set.

We have begun some preliminary work on this as a project and hope to do something with it in the coming year. The big thing with this one, though, is getting the funds together to get it printed...

What we want is this:

BASIC SET
-- Player's Guide (32 pages; staple-bound, cardstock cover)
-- Game Master's Guide (32 pages; staple-bound, cardstock cover)
-- Low-Level Sample Adventure (16-24 pages; staple-bound, cardstock cover)
-- Blank Character Sheets (with light silo's of the various races/classes)
-- Set of Dice

This set should cover levels 1-5. Strip down things to the bare bones, necessary elements only. IE: Treat races as classes much like the old Basic Set did (Elves could be, for example, dedicated Sorcerer/Fighters). Ensure that this is fully, and completely compatible with the 3rd edition/d20 rules so that conversion later will be a snap.


EXPERT SET
-- Player's Guide (32-48 pages; staple-bound, cardstock cover)
-- Game Master's Guide (32-48 pages; staple-bound, cardstock cover)
-- Mid-Level Sample Adventure (24-32 pages; staple-bound, cardstock cover)

This set should cover levels 6-10. This one should introduce the Prestige Class as well (with a few examples). Add some options that are a part of the d20 system, but not introduced in teh BASIC SET.


ADVANCED SET
-- Player's Guide (32-48 pages; staple-bound, cardstock cover)
-- Game Master's Guide (32-48 pages; staple-bound, cardstock cover)
-- High-Level Sample Adventure (24-32 pages; staple-bound, cardstock cover)

This set should cover levels 11-20. With this set, the entire d20 SRD should be included (for the most part). The fact that Elves are (as listed above, for example) are actually a race and multi-class combination should be revealed and explained.


This is my plan. Any comments?

 

[Sanackranib]

basic

the simple solution is to bring back advanced hero quest its roll playing without all the mechanics. not to mention the fact that it comes with a bunch of scaven (they look the same as the slithern so you get that added bonus)

 

[BeholderBurger]

A pic of my kid

 

[KDLadage]

BeholderBurger... wrong thread for that, isn't it?

 

[cbatt]

KDLadage - that's exactly the type of thing that popped into my head as I read this thread. Fantastic idea.

I'd up the page count of the introductory module to 32 pages and use the extra space to extensively illustrate how the situations and the rules mesh together.

Also: Examples, examples, examples. Especially examples of how to play the game. Not so much about how the mechanics work but to answer the question, "So, we've got and basically understand all this stuff (rules), now what do we do with it? How do we actually play?" Gaming etiquette, game mastering techniques, general meta-game nonsense. That kind of stuff.

That was easily the most difficult part of learning the game for me... All I'd ever played to that point was monopoly, scrabble, and endless variations of hide'n'seek, tag, and cops'n'robbers (sue me, I was 8). I had a very good grasp on all of the rules, but if my older cousin hadn't sat me down and showed me how it was supposed to be played, I'd never have made it this far.

EDIT: one more thing... I'd just do the basic set and point players to the core books explaining that it will add many more options, allow their characters to advance past 5th level, and be 100% compatible with their current game. Basically, re-create the big-black-box version of ODnD, but align it with the core rules just like the current Adventure Game.