D&D 5E I thought WotC was removing biological morals?

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Charlaquin

Goblin Queen (She/Her/Hers)
There is an odd cynical streak that wants to point out the hypocrisy of that. That some fey are utterly bound by their nature and other fey are not, but I think it's just easier to admit that PC "fey" are a mechanical mistake and treat those races/lineages as humanoids with fey ancestry (cf elves).
It’s not hypocritical at all. There’s a rough consensus that centaurs and satyrs, while they don’t display all the typical hallmarks of personhood, do display enough of them that they should probably count. Just like there is a scientific consensus monotremes don’t display all the typical hallmarks of the class mammalia, but do display enough of them that they should count. That’s how socially constructed categories work, they neither have nor need hard lines, we can evaluate based on a set of criteria what does or doesn’t share enough of those criteria to belong in the category.
 

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Gradine

The Elephant in the Room (she/her)
There is an odd cynical streak that wants to point out the hypocrisy of that. That some fey are utterly bound by their nature and other fey are not, but I think it's just easier to admit that PC "fey" are a mechanical mistake and treat those races/lineages as humanoids with fey ancestry (cf elves).
Are tieflings fiends and aasimar celestials?

There can be mortals with outsider ancestry without being outsiders themselves. That's always been the case?
 

Remathilis

Legend
D&D, at its core, is inherently conservative. It takes a 19th century conservative Counter-Enlightenment Romantic's ideas about the world and society and morality and dresses it up with magic and funny ears. And I don't know if that can ever be fundamentally changed, or if it can only be covered up despite the designers' efforts at promoting inclusiveness in the game. I guess that would all depend on if the designers will ever be ready to confront the themes endemic to D&D ever since Appendix N was assembled head-on, rather than try and tip-toe around them. But it's not just D&D; it's the entire subgenre of fantasy that it resides in.

I'm not going to argue your point, though I do not agree with it, but I do ask the obvious question: if D&D is fundamentally flawed at it's inception, why are we even bothering? Burn the whole thing down and start again.
 

Marc_C

Solitary Role Playing
A quick search on EnWorld, by title, shows that there are 25 pages with 20 different new threads each on alignments = 500 threads on alignments.

Anyone wanting to start a new alignment thread should read those before they do. :p
 


Doug McCrae

Legend
Sure. Zack Snyder’s zombies, for example, rather miss the mark on the consumerism metaphor. But zombies as an immigration metaphor? That’s so far afield of any interpretation I’ve ever heard… it’s not a drift, it’s a complete non-sequitur. I would need to hear a more detailed analysis under this interpretive lens before accepting it out of hand.
I've heard of similar interpretations of The Walking Dead -- it's claimed a section of its fanbase interprets it in roughly this way -- but I've never seen the show so I have no opinion about whether it's a misinterpretation or not.
 
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I'm not going to argue your point, though I do not agree with it, but I do ask the obvious question: if D&D is fundamentally flawed at it's inception, why are we even bothering? Burn the whole thing down and start again.
Honestly, the thought is tempting, but I'm not the one who gets to make that decision, nor will I ever be. So for as long as I remain engaged with the TTRPG hobby, I have to acknowledge D&D in some capacity, if only to say "sorry, not interested". 800 lb gorilla and all that. Besides, these attitudes didn't begin with D&D and they certainly don't end with D&D.
 

Steampunkette

Rules Tinkerer and Freelance Writer
Supporter
So... a thing I intend to do, going forward, and a thing that WotC should do, is make creatures, even humanlike ones, that cannot alter their moral position "Unaligned", and then let their actions determine morality as things happen.

Angels and Demons? Unaligned Outsides. Angels might foster goodness in the universe, might -serve- goodness or a good creature... But they do so not out of choice or moral compunction, but because they're designed to do so. Further, they can and will commit terrible acts of horrible evil in order to fulfill the intentions of their creators.

An Angel will burn an entire city to the ground if they are commanded to do so, with no pause to rescue children or ensure that animals are loosed and saved, because they have been told that it will be good to do so.

Similarly, even a demon acting in a manner that appears good, such as saving a family, is ultimately serving a greater evil. And has no more moral consideration for the act than for poking a hole in a chicken.

Redcaps? Murderous Unaligned Fae. They kill because it is what they do. They're not "Evil" or "Good" or even "Neutral" because those alignments imply there's some morality to their thoughts and deeds. There isn't. No more than there's thought to their failed attempts at Stealth while wearing iron boots that they never remove. If a Redcap wanted to be stealthy, he could take them off. But even when he wishes to be stealthy, the boots make it basically impossible.

Because like homicide, the boots are a part of what a Redcap is.

As to the racial allegories of Redcaps: are not "People" or Representations thereof in any example. They're explicitly, historically, mythological monsters. So trying to compare them to things like Orcs and Elves is doomed to failure. And there's actually a couple of layered reasons for that.

Firstly: Orcs were never mythological. They were created, whole cloth, by Tolkien and other writers. There's no cultural tradition of Orcs in myth and legend unlike the Powrie/Redcap. Orcs were created to represent Corrupted Elves. Which is -already- heavy into racism because the Orcs are Black (With Black Speech) while the Elves are all white and blonde and it plays hard into Ham, of Biblical fame. Oh, I'm sure Tolkien didn't sit down and think "Darn black people and/or Jewish People, I'mma make them my villains!" when he wrote the book (though I could be wrong)

But there's a long-standing cultural precedent of "Evil = Black Skin" that Tolkien had been exposed to. And pretending it ain't there is foolish.

But then future writers took his evil orcs and gave them societies and personalities and families and made them even more humanlike. Which just -exacerbates- the issue. Because now you're applying all the cultural traits of various societies to the "Evil Race". Which are, almost invariably, 'Primitive' and 'Tribal'.

Meanwhile Elves -were- a Mythological race of people who were good, evil, and in between. At least from the cultural understanding that we (And Tolkien) could reasonably be able to gather. He was, after all, an abject nerd who studied linguistics and stuff like we study RPG Texts... And then we turned around and redid the Curse of Ham with evil black elves transformed by their gods. But elves themselves? They were always meant to be allegorically similar to humans with their own societies and identities and ideologies.

The Powrie are neither of those things. They were always an evil mythological bogeyman. They've got no cultural traits that reflect any society, and aren't geared to represent any specific race, except -maybe- White Scottish or English people in a very specific region who were murderers and bandits during a specific period of time which gave rise to the myth.

In the event that Redcaps are instead written to have a specific culture with their own identity and trappings, and/or the ability to make moral choices, it'll be a social issue. But until then, they're no more humanlike than the penanggalan, even if they've got a more human form.

And they should be, as previously noted, Unaligned homicidal murder elementals. It makes all the sense in the world.
 
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