D&D 5E I thought WotC was removing biological morals?

[Umbran]

So I don't think it's hypocritical so much as there's an unwritten difference between the types of fey.

And, there may well be a lack of common understanding of what "type" is supposed to mean. In 5e, it is mostly a label to note a broad type that may or may not be impacted by some effect(s). There can be a lot of other variation within each type.

 

[Umbran]

Firstly: Orcs were never mythological. They were created, whole cloth, by Tolkien and other writers. There's no cultural tradition of Orcs in myth and legend unlike the Powrie/Redcap.

So, like many things, it changed over time. It is my understanding that The Hobbit came first, as a story told to his children. And in that book, he frequently refers to them as "goblins", which do have an older mythological referent.

Once he took that root, and built it out into a larger world, he did partially break the association. But the Elves vs. Orc (as corrupted elves) still have an echo of Seelie vs Unseelie fae to them.

 

[Steampunkette]

I find a lot here that I agree with.

Though, I do have a question.

You mention that there's no mythological history of orcs; that Tolkien wrote them into existence.

How is that not also true of mythological creatures? Before something was written (or spoken) into story, how would it have a history?

The issue lies in Cultural Weight.

Orcs -started- as "People". Just a twisted form of people playing into a specific cultural image.

Powrie were not "People" to begin with. They were written in legend as monsters that had a humanlike shape.

Redcaps would have to have "Peopleness" applied to them, a culture, an identity, etc. Their Cultural Weight, like Angels and Demons, is that they don't really have any semblance of personal responsibility. No more moral decisionmaking to their murderous ways than a rabbit eating her young when she's stressed out.

 

[Dragonsbane]

Careful... Mods are probably watching.

I hope I didn't say something inappropriate! Are we still allowed to say someone might be oversensitive? If not I can delete my post.

 

[Dragonsbane]

If, in your description of fictional Orcs, you use the language associated with bigotry to blacks, you keep those concepts alive. Those so inclined to do so could- and would- then use “Orcs” as a RW racist dog whistle.*

Ahh, is said language up for debate? Did you know what the people writing about orcs thought? I'm sure there is tons of documentation, as in one or two sentences people base their whole opinion of a person.

Let's get real. Plenty of things in the news the last 4 years were dog whistles for racists. The social movements fighting racism and bigotry are all right on.

But... Orc descriptions? Drow descriptions? Don't see it. As most people don't. Maybe on these forums, but in plenty of places they don't. No one I know does that plays, I asked them all.

Isn't this thread about Dragons? Are there racist dog whistles there?

 

[Faolyn]

But... Orc descriptions? Drow descriptions? Don't see it. As most people don't. Maybe on these forums, but in plenty of places they don't. No one I know does that plays, I asked them all.

This is definitely very third-hand knowledge, but last Friday one of the people in my group (who is other gaming groups as well) was discussing someone whom he had to kick out. That person started in on "all orcs are always evil" and apparently his attempts to defend that belief involved bringing in "real life statistics" and from there revealed actual real-world racist beliefs, which is when he got kicked.

Obviously, I wasn't there to hear what went down, but I trust the person who told me this story not to lie. To me this indicates that yes, there are some people who use real-life racist beliefs to justify in-game racist beliefs.

Isn't this thread about Dragons? Are there racist dog whistles there?

No, this particular thread is about biological determinism in a type of fey that is written as being literally born out of the act of murder.

 

[Gradine]

For Fae, who are not well-established to be biological creatures as we commonly use the term?

We were, at that time, discussing Orcs.

I have long held that the term "biological" belongs nowhere near any immortal outsiders (fae, elemental, celestial, fiend)

 

[Morrus]

A quick search on EnWorld, by title, shows that there are 25 pages with 20 different new threads each on alignments = 500 threads on alignments.

Anyone wanting to start a new alignment thread should read those before they do.

That’s not really how conversations work.

 

[Umbran]

We were, at that time, discussing Orcs.

Yes, but the thread is about fey creatures.

If this is going to just be another orc/drow thread, I'm just gonna close it.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Ahh, is said language up for debate? Did you know what the people writing about orcs thought? I'm sure there is tons of documentation, as in one or two sentences people base their whole opinion of a person.

Let's get real. Plenty of things in the news the last 4 years were dog whistles for racists. The social movements fighting racism and bigotry are all right on.

But... Orc descriptions? Drow descriptions? Don't see it. As most people don't. Maybe on these forums, but in plenty of places they don't. No one I know does that plays, I asked them all.

Isn't this thread about Dragons? Are there racist dog whistles there?

Based on past discussion on this topic, I’m fairly sure that the people who first wrote about orcs and fictionalized versions of RW cultures all those decades ago- both in literature and the games inspired by it- were NOT truly racist. They used the language of those slurs because they found them evocative. In doing so, they completely ignored the harm those stereotypes did. They assumed because THEY felt there was nothing they wrote offended THEM, it followed that NOBODY would be offended.

That’s almost a textbook illustration of privilege.

The complaints on this don’t go back just a few years, they go back before most of the people on this board were born. It’s just that nobody took those complaints seriously until the 1990s or so.