D&D 5E I thought WotC was removing biological morals?

[Argyle King]

Yeah, Lucifer is an interesting case. 99% of the Lucifer story is based on fictional writings rather than actual religious texts. Hence, I believe that how one views Lucifer (in writing and popular conception) is more of a Rorshach test.

I don't want to derail the thread, but it's a story which I have found interesting to study because of how many different ways it can be viewed.

To make some attempt at bringing it back to D&D, I find that 5E's version of the Gruumsh (Orc God) story is interesting in somewhat similar ways. Depending on how you look at it, he doesn't sound like the villain.

 

[Warpiglet-7]

I don't want to derail the thread, but it's a story which I have found interesting to study because of how many different ways it can be viewed.

To make some attempt at bringing it back to D&D, I find that 5E's version of the Gruumsh (Orc God) story is interesting in somewhat similar ways. Depending on how you look at it, he doesn't sound like the villain.

I will say that is one argument against monolithic racial alignment.

at times some murkiness and perspective leads to some interesting story.

conversely, having good guys from a usually evil race are particularly compelling. Drizzt is overexposed now by God did I like him in the Crystal Shard! I am numb to it now to an extent but back then it was fresh.

I kind of like the idea of an orcish warlord who is noble among generally ignoble kin.

 

[Faolyn]

To make some attempt at bringing it back to D&D, I find that 5E's version of the Gruumsh (Orc God) story is interesting in somewhat similar ways. Depending on how you look at it, he doesn't sound like the villain.

The one where all the other gods took the good land? Yeah, there's so many holes in the story as I recall it that it's impossible to say whether or not Gruumsh's reaction was justified or not. It only works if all the other races (and therefore their gods) are usually fair and honest and thus anyone who goes against them is by definition unfair and dishonest.

 

[Crimson Longinus]

I don't want to derail the thread, but it's a story which I have found interesting to study because of how many different ways it can be viewed.

To make some attempt at bringing it back to D&D, I find that 5E's version of the Gruumsh (Orc God) story is interesting in somewhat similar ways. Depending on how you look at it, he doesn't sound like the villain.

That's one reason why I want just get rid of alignment. Stories are far more interesting without this bizarre labelling of objective good and evil. Just tell the story and let the listener decide who's good!

Regarding to that, I find many attempts to make traditionally evil races such as orcs or drow less problematic rather meh. Usually they start with some sort of "sure, the orcs who follow Gruumsh/drow who follow Lolth are evil, but there are other groups that are good!" And I have nothing against adding more diversity and having those other groups, but it still fails to properly interrogate the nature of 'evil.' Like why many drow actually follow Lolth? Does Lolth actually have some legit point? These Lolthist drow probably wouldn't see themselves as evil; give them an understandable angle which may be antagonistic to many people, but make it more interesting than just 'evil.'

 

[Argyle King]

The one where all the other gods took the good land? Yeah, there's so many holes in the story as I recall it that it's impossible to say whether or not Gruumsh's reaction was justified or not. It only works if all the other races (and therefore their gods) are usually fair and honest and thus anyone who goes against them is by definition unfair and dishonest.

That's the story I was referencing.

Yes, he's "evil" in that his plan for revenge is to simply kill everyone else. But I think it's hard to say that's more evil than tricking an entire race of people into being stuck with inhospitable land for eternity. Looking back at US History, I doubt many people would view events such as the Trail of Tears as "good," and the Gruumsh story has times during which it comes across as a version of that on a cosmic scale.

 

[Bedrockgames]

Removing alignments from monsters as I understand it is to say that no creature is biologically 'evil'. But is there a material difference between saying a race is evil and saying a race is homicidal?

I'm not sure I have a point to make, other than that I'm slightly confuised as I thought that was what they said they were going to stop doing?

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Are they making an exception for things like fey and demons and devils ? Or maybe they are just removing alignment as an entry but still leaving this kind of description for a monster where it feels appropriate?

 

[Hexmage-EN]

Like why many drow actually follow Lolth? Does Lolth actually have some legit point?

I would imagine many drow follow Lolth for the same reason many people at least claim to follow real world religions; either out of fear of Lolth's followers or fear of Lolth herself.

I think I recall reading some bit of lore from some edition saying that drow believe Lolth can see through the eyes of any spider. The idea that the Spider Queen could be watching from even the tiniest spider in your home and possibly instruct her faithful and/or demons to kill you would be terrifying.

Critical Role at least paints Lolth as effectively incompetent at protecting her chosen people but angered when they turn from her. The upcoming Tal'Dorei Reborn book even includes non-Lolthite drow from Wildemount who want to save the drow beneath Tal'Dorei from the Spider Queen (however, the Wildemount drow themselves worship an entity called the Luxon, which they might be trying to get the Lolthite drow to convert to).

 

[Bedrockgames]

Regarding to that, I find many attempts to make traditionally evil races such as orcs or drow less problematic rather meh. Usually they start with some sort of "sure, the orcs who follow Gruumsh/drow who follow Lolth are evil, but there are other groups that are good!" And I have nothing against adding more diversity and having those other groups, but it still fails to properly interrogate the nature of 'evil.' Like why many drow actually follow Lolth? Does Lolth actually have some legit point? These Lolthist drow probably wouldn't see themselves as evil; give them an understandable angle which may be antagonistic to many people, but make it more interesting than just 'evil.'

The dark elf trilogy explored this quite a bit. It was an attempt to honestly think through what an evil society would look like under the alignment system. It definitely isn't suitable for a world striving for moral gray or realism. But it worked as a kind of campy fantasy thing IMO (especially with the outfits and S&M attire). I always thought it was kind of a neat fantasy thought experiment.

I think if you want to take an honest crack at depicting a society that is evil, you definitely don't need them to view themselves as such. I might look to stuff like mob movies, like Goodfellas. Where you have society that is engaged in all kinds of crimes and activities most people would say is evil, but they also have their own creed and lines. I think Goodfellas is a good example because its one where the director clearly is making a judgement about the morality but is willing to explore the characters and their lifestyle fully.

 

[Argyle King]

I will say that is one argument against monolithic racial alignment.

at times some murkiness and perspective leads to some interesting story.

conversely, having good guys from a usually evil race are particularly compelling. Drizzt is overexposed now by God did I like him in the Crystal Shard! I am numb to it now to an extent but back then it was fresh.

I kind of like the idea of an orcish warlord who is noble among generally ignoble kin.

I never got around the playing it (yet,) but I had a character concept based around that. I was thinking the character would most likely be a cleric.

The idea was that the character came across whatever the equivalent of the Dead Sea Scrolls would be for a follower of Gruumsh. After failed attempts to bring this new gospel of Gruumsh to light in the character's tribe, the character sets out to spread the new word. With both more-traditional orcs and faiths of other races being hostile to this new faith, the character finds few allies in the world. So, signing up with the PCs and being on the move is one of the few options left for the character. Along the way, the character would hope to gain more insight into the found texts and possibly seek out more lost pieces of the OG (Old Gruumsh) Testament.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

With Redcap being bilingual and INT 10, they clearly have what it takes to create a culture, even if it is unpalatable to us (a kill song? an arson lullaby?) Even if they don't have currently a culture, they are able to create one, being as intelligent as humans are.

That doesn’t necessarily follow.