I tried the 4 player standard, what a mess...

[hong]

I agree, but I don't bother to calculate the difficulty of an encounter in any depth. My players are old schoolers, so they understand sometimes you meet a CR12 monster when you are Level 4. If so, you scoot.

Safe CR = warning labels on coffee that it's hot. Adventuring is supposed to be dangerous.

The journey from a positive to a normative statement is short, indeed.

 

[Felon]

A ranger is not a front-line fighter and should not be considered part of the core four. (A 3.0 ranger had more hit points but still wore light armor and was stuck with a lame fighting style that is only lamer at 1st-level. You shouldn't be taking -2 to hit when your BAB hasn't even reached +2.) Rangers make good archers, but archery is a weaker fighting style than melee.

Against an ogre, I'd posit that archery "kiting" is probably the strongest option for 1st-level characters. No 1st-level character should really be considered a front-line fighter, as they have neither enough hit points or good enough armor to absorb much damage. Even the barbarian's full hit point total stands a good chance of being depleted by an ogre's club.

An ogre is also a sucker for color sprays or sleep, which serve 1st-level casters far better than a 1st-level magic missile. Yet oddly, wizards keep picking magic missile as their first spell. Go figure.

I notice a lot of DM's like throwing ogres 1st-level players, along with bands of orcs or gnolls. I'm inclined to think that many a DM doesn't have a good grasp on what 1st-level characters are supposed to be doing. Namely, they should be fighting things weaker than humans, like kobolds, goblins, big bugs, rats with thyroid gland problems, and other unimpressive things that actually take a Str penalty to their damage rolls. Sounds unimpressive, but then again 1st-level should be pretty fleeting. 1000 XP can easily be awarded in one game session.
damage.

 

[Sigdel]

You said nothing of the kind directly, no. But altering CR/EL as you suggest is effectively saying the same thing. If the monster is in a cave where it has cover, and the PCs charge into the cave, the EL goes up because of the cover. If they instead lure it out, there is no cover, and the EL stays the same. If the party is optimized, the EL stays the same, but if the party has made poor choices for survival, the EL goes up.

Please tell me how that differs from "the EL of an encounter goes up just because the players do something stupid", because, frankly, I can't see it.


RC

What if the PC's had no choice? Strangely enough I feel that like in real life, in D&D you tend to learn more from your mistakes than you victories. The OP now knows that the Cr system is not ans exact science. The players know that an ogre will kill them if they are a poorly assembled group. And both groups now know (I hope) that their is a reason that WotC made 3.5.
The instance the the OP has is a sad one, one of poor planning, and the lack of the 3.5 rules. The 3.5 druid alone would of been more useful than the warm-body-that-goes-squish that the 3.0 is.

 

[frankthedm]

Judge the encounter for yourselves!

http://www.gamewyrd.com/pictures/goodman/VaultPreview.zip

 

[Remathilis]

Ah, this gives us some info on the encounter.

I think this stretches from "bad CR" and "bad tactics" to "poorly designed encounter" (and I generally LIKE GG). Talk about your meatgrinder!

(Oh: Writer: Michael Mearls. Lucy's got some 'spain'n to do.)

 

[Hussar]

Thanks Frank

Ok, looking at the preview we see that this encounter is completely unavoidable. There's simply no way around (assuming those routes to the east don't lead outside). Also note, by the text of the module, fighting in room 1 does NOT incur the -2 penalty for terrain.

The caverns and passages are cramped and cluttered
with stalactites and stalagmites. Outside of room 1,
characters who fight with Large weapons suffer a –2
circumstance penalty to hit.

So, the ogre is at no penalties on his attacks, and neither are the PC's.

Also note that talking your way past this encounter is not possible:

He speaks in halting Common of the changes to his
body, the kobolds from the caves, and strange
dreams he has been having lately. After a minute or
two of conversation, he hefts his club with a
resigned sigh and attacks, shrieking that the gods
will not have his soul without a fight.

So, you have an unavoidable fight with a superior opponent being fought by PC's who are not geared for melee with this critter. Yeah, not a huge surprise that the PC's get their butts handed to them. This isn't a failing of the CR system, it's simply a very, very tough encounter.

You have an under CR'd opponent in a terrain that favours him (no running away or you might fall down) and no chance of talking your way past.

Also note, that if you were not forewarned about the ogre, it would not be too hard to stumble onto him mostly by accident.

 

[Lord Zardoz]

Terrain consideration

4 first level Pc vs 1 Ogre in a room is going to end badly for the players. There is just no room to maneuver. The players will even have a hard time trying to run away due to AoO.

4 first level Pc vs 1 Ogre in an open field is another story. In the open, you can create an Ogre sized pin cushion using ranged attacks and staying away as much as possible. If the Ogre is in medium Armour (Hide), he will not be able to close and attack unless the players let him. They will have to figure out how to keep the Ogre from simply charging them, but that is not such a huge problem.

END COMMUNICATION

 

[Mistwell]

I think it is just a matter of how the characters are built. For example, here is a fairly simple Rogue build:

Rogue:

A rogue with a reach weapon (generally one of the good tactics for a rogue) can take something like Exotic Weapon: Great Spear (or Heavy Polearm), both from Complete Warrior. Both have reach, and do 2d6 damage. If human, they can take improved initiative as well. So flank the Ogre, or win initiative and attack the flat footed Ogre, or attack after your spellcaster casts Grease on the floor the Ogre is standing on (Ogres do not have 5 ranks in balance, so they are balancing while on the grease, and therefore lose their dex bonus to AC and might fall prone) and you are doing 3d6 damage on a hit, plus strength (probably about a +1). So Average damage 11.5. An Ogre has 29 hit points, so you've reduced 1/3 of it's hit points in one blow, and you are still 10' away.

It shouldn't be that difficult for a Fighter to do similar damage. And between the two, with the arcane spellcaster and and divine spellcaster buffing them and healing them and doing battlefield control (or direct damage at the end if the Ogre just needs one magic missle to go down), I'd think the party should be able to take the Ogre down in 2-3 rounds.

The battle will expend the spellcasters resources, and a lot of hit points, and will likely see the rogue going down before the end. But, it should be a survivable while tough encounter.

 

[gizmo33]

I think it is just a matter of how the characters are built.

So your rogue characters starts out with a premonition about his first major opponent in a fight? That would require an interesting background, and more information than I think players get about their character's future opponents. As a 1st level rogue I wouldn't be excited about any strategy that has me standing next to a creature that does 2d8+7 damage - and the rogue had to burn a feat just to fight the thing on it's own terms.

IMO the sensible conclusion is that the ogre is simply under-CRed. I hope that the CR system wasn't designed with the assumption that you'd be mining non-core books for feat combos and strange weapons (BTW - how is it that the weight of a "great polearm" is somehow equivalent to a greataxe but the pole is significantly longer. Isn't there a basic physics issue there? or is it just about selling splatbooks and should I expect a "great great polearm" to do 3d6 damage next?)

 

[Shazman]

I think it is just a matter of how the characters are built. For example, here is a fairly simple Rogue build:

Rogue:

A rogue with a reach weapon (generally one of the good tactics for a rogue) can take something like Exotic Weapon: Great Spear (or Heavy Polearm), both from Complete Warrior. Both have reach, and do 2d6 damage. If human, they can take improved initiative as well. So flank the Ogre, or win initiative and attack the flat footed Ogre, or attack after your spellcaster casts Grease on the floor the Ogre is standing on (Ogres do not have 5 ranks in balance, so they are balancing while on the grease, and therefore lose their dex bonus to AC and might fall prone) and you are doing 3d6 damage on a hit, plus strength (probably about a +1). So Average damage 11.5. An Ogre has 29 hit points, so you've reduced 1/3 of it's hit points in one blow, and you are still 10' away.

It shouldn't be that difficult for a Fighter to do similar damage. And between the two, with the arcane spellcaster and and divine spellcaster buffing them and healing them and doing battlefield control (or direct damage at the end if the Ogre just needs one magic missle to go down), I'd think the party should be able to take the Ogre down in 2-3 rounds.

The battle will expend the spellcasters resources, and a lot of hit points, and will likely see the rogue going down before the end. But, it should be a survivable while tough encounter.

Good tactic, but a first level rogue can't have exotic weapon proficiency for the same reason he can't have weapon finesse: He doesn't have the required +1 BAB. He can use the weapon, but would he really want to take a -4 penalty with no BAB and low str bonus? I don't think so.