I tried the 4 player standard, what a mess...

[Vocenoctum]

I find it hilarious the range of assumptions that are tacked on when little to no information is initially given to support them, but I suppose that is the nature of public postings.

Like CR, forums can't handle all possibilities.

I stated earlier that the CR system is a failure, I didn't add "for me". My mistake. Obviously some posters here feel that it has merit and usefulness for them.

The CR system is useful as a tool for eyeballing, but it doesn't replace eyeballing. If you want a monster to challenge a 5th level party, you can start with CR4-6 monsters and decide from there. Surely you don't browse through every monster entry in every book to eyeball up an encounter for them?

The mechanics used to represent the stalagtites and mites in the cave were very simple and favored the PC's if they used medium or small weapons. A flat -2 to hit using any large weapon, and I gave half cover to anyone subjected to a missile attack (which was not part of the encounter as written).

Was this a 3.5 adventure, or a 3e adventure? The site say's "updated for 3.5" or whatnot, so not sure which version you have.

In 3.5 "Large" weapons are used by "large" monsters. A greatsword for a Medium character is a two-handed medium weapon, not a large weapon. In 3e, it was a "large" weapon. This makes a bit of a difference for the penalty. I'm not saying you ran it wrong, I'm just wondering what Goodman Games put in as a counter to the ogre's power.

 

[Nail]

.... unless there is something serious left out of the OP's encounter description.

It's possible there was.

For example, it may be the case that the cave penalizes size Large creatures when they use their weapons, rather than penalizing Large (3.0e) weapons. If that was the case (and we remove the OP-added missile weapon penalty), then the terrain gives the ogre a distinct disadvantage.

 

[Campbell]

Just a quick note : The actual Encounter Level of a given encounter does not affect the experience gained from overcoming the encounter. In 3rd Edition,revised or not, you award experience to each player for each creature defeated according to its Challenge Rating. Of course, the DMG advises that you may want to alter experience awards for particularly difficult or particularly easy encounters. However, Encounter Levels do affect the suggested treasure received from an encounter.

 

[kaomera]

It's possible there was.

For example, it may be the case that the cave penalizes size Large creatures when they use their weapons, rather than penalizing Large (3.0e) weapons. If that was the case (and we remove the OP-added missile weapon penalty), then the terrain gives the ogre a distinct disadvantage.

Actually, IIRC that particular set of penalties is supposed to be applied everywhere in the first level of the dungeon except for the first encounter (with the Ogre). I know that there's a 3.5 update for the module, but I haven't actually seen it. The module was pretty damn hard, even for a first-level adventure (we beat it because a: nothing "re-spawns", and b: we played like complete cowards). The Ogre, however, was a complete pushover (for us); he slipped while attempting to charge us, so we backed up, used Entangle outside the cave, and pelted him with missile fire. I don't think he failed a single save, but he was still held up several rounds while stuck moving at half speed. His AC was pretty high for a first-level party (I think even the Halfling Rogue had to roll an 11+ to hit him), and I was surprised that his ability scores had not been negatively impacted by the visible "corruption" he was suffering from, but we got him down without him getting a single swing on any PC, or us having to use our alchemists' fire. We did blow through most of the party's spells, and we ended up resting up before heading any further in...

 

[MerricB]

The CR/EL system is a direct descendent of the "Monster Level" system from the 1st Edition DMG. While I would agree that the CR/EL system is, in many ways, an improvement on that system, there are other ways in which it is not. IMHO, of course.

The Monster Level system worked by determining XP first, and gave you a fairly clear system by which XP were determined. XP for all standard monsters were already predetermined. It then placed the monster in a "level" category based upon its XP. The "Monster Level" roughly corresponded to the "dungeon level" or equivilent where the creature was likely to be encountered.

The CR/EL system fails to make clear the standard on which it is based. Unlike the old Monster Level system, you cannot look at a creature, do a little math, and slot it into the appropriate category. The reason that the 3.0 ogre problem exists is that CR has a higher "guesswork" component than ML.

It's interesting to compare the two. Do you have the 3.5e MM, RC? If you do, have a look at the appendices on creating & advancing monsters and determining CR.

The old monster-level system involved no guesswork in getting the XP value or determining the "monster level" of a monster. However, it then failed to actually correlate how dangerous a monster was with its XP value. It's my basic problem with point-buy systems: they're blind to the combinations created. No judgement is used.

What made the old 1e system even wackier was that even after you'd worked out the XP of a monster, it got changed according to a ratio of levels:HD facing it, with special abilities giving extra HD for the ratio. Thus, a party of 6 1st level characters fighting an Ogre would only get 5/6ths of the XP available... The hordes of monsters needed to get full XP for high-level PCs is rather scary.

The CR/EL system fails to make clear the standard on which it is based.

Returning to this quote, I do agree with this. Monte Cook is curiously silent in the DMG about what the basis used for the CR judgements, despite many 'Behind the Curtain' insights.
It's been posted enough times online since, but it isn't in the 3e rulebooks. (A vague description of "4 characters" isn't quite enough).

Once the basis was made clear in subsequent messages, then the CR system has proved surprisingly accurate for a game with so many variables.

Cheers!

 

[Klaus]

Being two levels above the party, the Ogre is a very dangerous encounter beacuse the PCs wouldn't realize they were in over their heads until it was too late. I ran 3 4th-level PCs against an Ogre (3.0) and they barely made it (all three fell at one point or another, with the cleric managing to bring the rogue/wizard up before getting into negative hp herself, and the wiz/rog dealt the last strike).

Against the ogre, you have to:

1 - Negate its reach
2 - Negate its ability to pount you into paste.

This boils down to:
- Rogue sniping with a bow or crossbow.
- Ranger using a longspear.
- Druid summoning wolf to be a meat shield, keeping cure spells prepared for worst-case scenario.
- Diviner casting some Will-save-based spell to bring the ogre down.

The party should spread out to be

[Div] [Drd] [Rog] [Rgr][Wolf][Ogre][Wolf]

 

[Nahat Anoj]

It's possible there was.

For example, it may be the case that the cave penalizes size Large creatures when they use their weapons, rather than penalizing Large (3.0e) weapons. If that was the case (and we remove the OP-added missile weapon penalty), then the terrain gives the ogre a distinct disadvantage.

I have the adventure and can list some of the conditions of the caves wherein the ogre had his lair. The module gives lists some general qualities of the dungeon level and details specifics for each area.

In general, the rock in these caves is described as being "damp and slick," and unless otherwise noted the height of the tunnels and rooms from floor to ceiling is about 12 feet. This results in the following adjustments:

*Characters who try to run must make a DC 15 Balance check or slip and fall. Characters who fall must roll a d10 - this number is treated as a percent of how far the character moves before falling prone.

*All characters have a -2 to Climb checks.

*All characters who fight with two-handed weapons suffer a -2 penalty to melee attack rolls.

*All characters have a -2 penalty to Listen checks (due to the incessant sound of loudly dripping water)

The lair of the ogre is indeed the only way into the dungeon. The entrance is about 20 feet across, leading into the southwest end of a room that's roughly trapezoidal. The length of the room is about 50 feet. The eastern wall of the room is about 20 feet long. The western wall of the room is about 40 feet long. There is a single exit, a corridor 10 feet across leading out through the center of the north wall. Because the area description doesn't specify otherwise, the room is about 12 feet high.

This is the description of the room from the text:

"... The floor is thick with debris, six inches deep of bones, dirt, and loose rocks along the edges of the room. The chamber’s center holds a crudely-dug fire pit, while a thick pile of blankets and furs lies against the eastern wall. An iron spike driven into a crack in the western wall by the cave’s entrance serves as a hook for a lantern."

The ogre, named "Logbrag," is at the eastern end of the room when the encounter starts. Logbrag is delusional, thinking the PCs are emissaries of some dark gods sent to bring him to the afterlife. He also has obvious physical deformities, such as glowing green eyes and "rancid, oozing pustules on his back." (in later areas the adventure gets pretty high on the "ick" scale ) However, none of these things hinder the ogres combat effectiveness. After babbling on about denizens of the caves beyond, he "hefts his club with a resigned sigh and attacks, shrieking that the gods will not have his soul without a fight."

The ogre's stat block is listed below (it's correctly identified as CR 3 - EDIT: I have the "updated to 3.5 version"):

Logbrag the Ogre: CR 3; Large Giant; HD 4d8+11; hp
29; Init -1; Spd 30 ft.; AC 16, touch 8, flat-footed 16; Base
Atk +3; Grp +12; Atk/Full Atk huge greatclub +8 melee
(2d8+7); Space/Reach 10 ft./10 ft.; SQ Darkvision 60 ft.,
low-light vision; AL CE; SV Fort +6, Ref +0, Will +1; Str
21, Dex 8, Con 15, Int 6, Wis 10, Cha 7.
Skills and Feats: Climb +5, Listen +2, Spot +2. Feats:
Toughness, Weapon Focus (greatclub).
Possessions: Greatclub, hide armor.

So there you have it. FWIW, I would run this encounter differently from how the text suggests it should go down. First, I would have given PCs the option of possibly convincing it to leave them alone (according to the text, the ogre is obviously meant to reveal certain aspects of the dungeon and then fight to the death). If that fails, I wouldn't have had the ogre to wear it's armor (after all, how can PCs see all the pustules on its back if the ogre has it's armor on?). At the very least, I would have given the ogre a penalty to attack rolls and have it act rashly because of its great size and its delusions. If it charges (and I probably would have made it do so), I would have forced it to make a Balance check to see if it falls or not (although I think I can forgive DMs who forget to enforce the DC 15 Balance check for the monsters - the encounter write-up doesn't mention it and it's easy to forget). If I can fault the encounter for one thing, it's that it doesn't mention how difficult this encounter could be for a group of 1st level PCs.

 

[Hussar]

Just a quick note : The actual Encounter Level of a given encounter does not affect the experience gained from overcoming the encounter. In 3rd Edition,revised or not, you award experience to each player for each creature defeated according to its Challenge Rating. Of course, the DMG advises that you may want to alter experience awards for particularly difficult or particularly easy encounters. However, Encounter Levels do affect the suggested treasure received from an encounter.

This really can't be stressed enough.

All the environmental factors affect the EL of the encounter. BUT, they have zero effect on the xp awarded for the encounter which is solely based on CR. I can jack up the EL of the encounter through the roof with various environmental effects, but, at the end of the encounter, the PC' still only get a CR2 worth of xp (plus maybe some ad hoc). Conversely, I can strip away all environmental effects, giving the PC's all the advantages in the world, and they get exactly the same xp. (Less, perhaps, an ad hoc adjustment)

EL =/= CR

CR is a measure of how tough a creature is against 4 PC's. EL is a measure of how tough a given encounter is. In other words, EL takes all the conditions of the encounter into account when determining how deadly the encounter is. CR does not.

Is the CR/EL system perfect? No, of course not. It's not even really meant to be. All that CR=APL means is that it should be a fairly easy fight using about 20% of resources. Note the SHOULD BE in that statement. A single high roll, some bad luck, or poor tactics can change that easily.

Why is a single orc worth 15 xp (IIRC) in 1e? Because it's a piddly encounter that the PC's should roll over. Why is a 3e orc CR 1/2, because it's a piddly creature that the PC's should roll over. However, it's also possible in either edition that environmental factors, surprise, or a variety of other things could result in a dead PC from a single orc.

Does the system work in all cases? Nope. Does it give you a metric to eyeball encounters? Yup. And that's all it's supposed to do. It is NOT a replacement for DM's judgement.

 

[haakon1]

(Flat XP values for monsters, how I miss you.)

Indeed.

Is the CR/EL system only scaled for an open, treeless plain without rocks or stones?

I agree, these are way too many adjustments. For one thing, many of the factors, like the setting for the fight, are actually adjustable by the party, using tactics:
- Approach, fire, and retreat. If it follows, good, no more protective terrain against arrows.
- If it does not, repeat.

BTW, even with cover, arrows are eventually going to be effective. Even without a high-AC type fighter, you could attempt Intimidate or Sleep. Or you could try to bribe the ogre....they're not the brightest bulbs in the Monster Manual. There are lots of options that don't require the "standard" party build. Lure the ogre outside if you think the terrain is too much in its favour.....smoke it out if you have to. A party of 1st level characters, even in 3.0, can take on an ogre and survive if they are clever and a little lucky.

Another idea, since they have a druid and a ranger, is to "think" about whether ogres are carrion eaters. I'm betting they are. Then, the druid finds a diseased sheep, or poison a carcass, and leave it near the cave. A more normal trap like a deadfall might also work. As you said, ogres are not too bright.

And this kind of encounter -- a tough one, where creativity is required, is where D&D at the tabletop outshines computer RPG's. You are not limited to only what it was programmed to do, but to any reasonable idea.

 

[haakon1]

At a glance, i think it is a very useful tool for determining the relative strength of a monster, but i've never run an battle where i calculate the odds based on the CR. To do that . . .

I agree, but I don't bother to calculate the difficulty of an encounter in any depth. My players are old schoolers, so they understand sometimes you meet a CR12 monster when you are Level 4. If so, you scoot.

Safe CR = warning labels on coffee that it's hot. Adventuring is supposed to be dangerous.