Replies to replies
I am replying to a whole bunch of posts at once.
I started doing this with the IR, which I was running, and when I came online upwards of one hundred new posts would face me. It works ...
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To Bagpuss
Bagpuss posted:
Please note: I will be doing extensive editing of Edena's text in an attempt to reduce the text to eassy rather than a thesis on the subject.
Comment
(grins hugely) Good luck!
Not that I am trying to be confusing. I'm not. I guess I just enjoy writing. Even if it isn't the best of writing, and it most certainly isn't the best.
Posted
Ah when I said dead I meant you know died, dead, game over, do not pass go do not collect £200. All the characters I've mentioned have died once, and never come back. Resurrection, Raise Dead and the like is impossible in a lot of the games I mentioned above and even in our D&D it is highly restricted.
Comment
(solemnly)
This appeared to be the case with Edena several times. It WAS finis. Game Over.
Yet somehow, I got Edena back. Not necessarily quickly, and not easily, but when a player tries hard enough and cares enough the impossible becomes possible.
No rules were broken, and the spirit of the game (MUCH more important, that, than any mere rules) was also not broken.
If Edena has any true triumphs, his return past the impossible odds, were his greatest triumphs.
Did you know Edena lost all his levels and powers, four times?
When one's character goes from above 20th level to 1st level (with no hope of a Wish or the like to return the lost power) it is a major victory to somehow regain the lost power.
I am considering having Edena rename himself after the Phoenix, because of this.
Valiante was killed permanently. A shame, for he was a delightfully humorous character. He was based on Dragonslair, the first Laserdisc based video game. Does anyone here remember that, and Dirk the Daring from the game?
Evendell the Elf was killed permanently.
In B2, ALL the orcs and ogres came storming up on Evendell and the party of low level characters.
The ogres feasted on man-flesh that night (well, on elf flesh, rather.) No survivors in the party, so nobody to even note the passing of Evendell.
You want to know who I thought, aside from my own characters, made the most difference by his death - by dying permanently and not living?
It was Reprisal's noble character in the First IR, and although the IR was humorous, I'm being very serious about this.
Reprisal's character (and tragically, I cannot remember his name) was the one who turned the greedy, world wrecking Technomancy of Toril into the lofty, enlightened society it became, and his personal vision and effort made the United Commonwealth of Toril possible.
This character, was a hero. The real thing. I hope Reprisal is out there, and reads this - or that someone (Zouron!) tells him I said this.
When his character fell for the last time, he was mourned across the Forgotten Realms, and across a great part of Realmspace.
They held a worldwide memorial for him, and they built a cathedral-like tomb for him.
Quickly, a cult arose - a cult, but a very benign cult - dedicated to his memory, to the ideals he held dear, to the deeds he accomplished for the people of the world. An effort to cherish his memory, to keep alive his dreams.
That cult grew into a movement, as the mainstream joined it, and the tomb became a monument, and the monument the center of a new organization, dedicated to advancing the cause of the peoples of the world. Eventually it became the heart of the new Church of Mercy, which would grow to become Realmspace's second most popular religion, and Reprisal's character would be remembered in song and word forever.
Posted
Here's where I have to disagree, sure having a character die can be upsetting, but depending on the manner of the characters death it can be rewarding and memorable.
Comment
Yes, it can. Ask Reprisal. Ask any mature gamer. It can be very rewarding, even if it is sad to lose a favorite character.
Again, ask Reprisal. Reprisal showed everyone how a character could live, how that character could die, and how his death could be more satisfying, more fulfilling, than a score of heroic victories in some unknown (and ultimately unimportant) battles.
Posted
Resurrection, Raise Dead and the like is in my opinion one of the worst things in D&D. Its not heroic to throw yourself into a battle against impossible odds if you know even if you happen to die you will be raised later and it will be as if nothing happened. There is no risk.
Comment
I totally agree. Resurrection can ruin the game. If your character is coming back, then hey - charge the barricades! Who cares if they burn him to a cinder, or chop him into mincemeat?
As a DM, I tried to create situations where TPKs (Total Party Kills) were threatened, or the life of the party cleric was threatened, or it was clear nobody was going (or could) help the party.
In the Third IR, I tried to explain to everyone that the entire setting was in danger of destruction, and if it was destroyed everyone died without hope of returning. There was no appeal. And it was close ... Gods, it was so close. I did not know until literally the last minute whether anyone was going to survive.
Ask William, or Venus, or Melkor, or Serpenteye, just how close it was.
If there is no danger, what is the point of it all?
And you are right ... resurrection can take all the danger away.
I guess the trick is to make the party feel in far more danger than there really is (those of you in the 3rd IR, ignore this. You were in EXTREME danger, and there was no illusion about that.)
One time, I ran a game, and I portrayed the danger too well: my brother decided I was out to get him and kill everyone (I hadn't killed anyone!) so he had his character turn around and do a suicidal charge on the monsters. (sighs)
Posted
Resurrection does not take the sting out of defeat, it cheapens the sacrifice of a hero is willing to make for his cause. Also its a mistake to think that a character dieing is a defeat, if the goal of the character is brought nearer or completed in their act of ultimate scarifice then its a victory.
Comment
YES.
I would add that I subscribe to the: If you aren't going to do it, nobody else will do it for you.
This is not the Forgotten Realms, where powerful NPCs will step in if you do not. (Well, the IR was in the FR Setting, but it quickly changed out of all recognition.)
If your character will not step up and accept the burden, then it's finis - not only for him, probably, but for everyone and everything the character cared about.
Posted
I think many roleplayer's get too attached to their characters, in such a way that they don't act in character when it comes to bringing them back. Most campaign worlds have 'heavens' that heros go to, if they had died in battle and earned their place in heaven would they really want to come back.
Comment
I disagree with you, but hey, you are entitled to your opinion.
I have no problem with those fiercely attached to their characters. If I did, that would be the Pot Calling the Kettle Black (after all, I have Edena.)
The idea that Heaven is so attractive that Death is more appealing than Life is a concept with drastic implications.
Without going any further on this very volatile subject, I will say that this core reality could create a chain reaction effect in the campaign world. An effect that altered that world into something as unrecognizable as the FR setting after my IRs went off there.
Posted
You mentioned before Sturm in Dragonlance, people remember him because he was willing to make the ultimate sacrifice for what he believed in, if he got raised from the dead 5 minutes later it would have completely lost its impact, and been a none event.
Comment
That's true. I fear I cannot question that, although it was not so pleasant, watching Kitiara kill Sturm like that.
Posted
There is very little agony in defeat if after a few magic words your character is up on his feat and healthy again.
Its my opinion that what makes a hero, a hero is nothing to do with skills, feats, powers, etc. but the ability to face your fears and carry on inspite of them.
The real heros in the Lord of the Rings are not Gimli, Legolas or Aragorn but Sam, Frodo, Merry and Pippin. Legolas and the like were confident in their skill at arms and that they could deal with most of the problems such a journey might present. But the hobbits had no skill and had never left their neighbourhood before let alone travelled the great distances involved. They didn't have to do it either, they had plenty of opportunities to pack it in.
In a game with easy resurrection what does a character (or player) have to fear? Nothing. Without a real threat to stand against you can't really be a hero.
I mean am I a hero sat here at this computer? No. But if the house across the street caught fire and I rushed in to save the occupant then maybe I could be called a hero. I could also be called stupid perhaps, but most heros have little regard for their own safety.
Until I face some risk I can't show or discover if I'm a hero or not.
With ressurection easily available your character is rarely at any real risk, I think thats one of the reasons lots of players prefer low-level games, the stakes are higher.
Comment
Hey, these are all good points.
I'm not arguing any one of them, for they are sound thinking.
It sounds to me like you are quite a good DM, Bagpuss.
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To DM_Matt
DM_Matt Posted
The last time I played an exceptionally heroic character, she rode (alone) after a fleeing Big Bad that the DM wanted to live (only a certain chracter was supposed to kill him, and he wasnt at the session). He fudged rolls and stats and made inconsistant and just plain wrong rulings to ensure that the Big Bad won, and altough the battle was quite cinematic, my character died and said Big Bad got away.
Some Dms don't like heroism to get in the way of their well-laid plans.
Comment
It is my opinion only, but I think your DM was in the wrong.
Your DM was - especially - in the wrong killing your character, while protecting his (her?) NPC.
I notice that a lot of DMs are overly protective of their NPCs, and even more protective of their campaign worlds.
Understandable, since they put the work and time into building the campaign world, but ... isn't the world there to be adventured in, and perhaps altered? I wouldn't enjoy playing in a campaign world set in stone, unless it were made clear that this was the case at the start, and my character was uninterested in causing any change (and that is not my playing style, nor what I enjoy, to play in staid, set campaigns.)
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To Celtavian
Celtavian posted
I tend to agree with this. I don't outlaw ressurection and have in fact used it on several occasions to get the action going. I mostly leave it up to the players.
Personally, I wish they rewrite the ressurection spell line to give it a percentage that deity grants the ressurection as a rule, say a 1% chance per level.
I dont' see why this wouldn't be reasonable because every being ressurected is a soul no longer able to serve in the afterlife. Then again, the DM could just arbitrate this using his own judgement.
It is still hard to tell a player their favorite character can't be ressurected if they die because of an unlucky save or lucky crit by the enemy. It is even worse if the die in a very unheroic manner such as at the start of a major battle or some lucky henchmen.
Heroic death is hard to arbitrate. I generally follow a house rule that is summed up as follows: If you aren't on a major quest that your Deity would be concerned with, your deity doesn't allow you to come back. If you die completing the quest, your deity rewards you by not allowing you to come back.
Comment
Most of my characters were lost for good after being killed once.
Edena is an extreme exception to the rule, and remember that for him, there is no Afterlife worth talking about - only the endless gloom of the Grey Waste (Nifleheim)
No matter what Edena does in life, whether good or bad, heroic or cowardly, the Grey Waste awaits him. There is no hope of anything else. Ever. Period.
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Volaran
I would agree that rampant resurrections do take a lot of steam out of a good heroic death.
In the game world I play in, this has been delt with in a few ways.
Typically, even clerics powerful enough to cast such a spell will only do so at great personal sacrifice, or with the presence of some powerful sign. In addition to this, aside from the simple "resurrections don't work if the soul is unwilling to return" in the PHB, our DM has enforced a high DC Will save in order to even be able to want to return. The presence of one's deity or one's ideal afterlife shouldn't be an easy to leave.
The few characters we have had return from the dead are always altered in subtle ways, worked out between the player and the DM. Commonly, rather like being a guest in an unfamiliar house, the character at the very least will never seem at ease again.
Comment
Being resurrected, should not be mundane. Ever.
It should be a life altering event. Certainly, the resurrecting cleric is owed something, and that debt is truly huge (close to that Carte Blanche I humorously wrote about long ago, but this is not humorous.)
How about a complete change in alignment, hmmm?
How about a complete change in religion?
How about becoming a cleric or druid?
Or, if the resurrecting cleric is not so nice, how about slavery or servitude to that cleric and his or her religion?
The cleric in question must actually reach out with his magic to the Outer Planes, and force the soul to come forth, and return to the Prime Material.
The dust of the body is enshrined with new flesh, and made whole, and the soul returned within it's mortal vessel.
Is this the kind of thing where afterwards the cleric says: Cha-Ching. That'll be fifty dollars and 99 cents, please.
I don't think so.
Remember that a cleric may ALWAYS refuse to cast a resurrection.
In this, that cleric has ultimate power over the slain character. Carte Blanche indeed.
Perhaps a PC cleric cannot get away with using this power, but the NPC clergy of the DM have a free reign.
If the character is in a grim Afterlife (the Lower Planes), the cleric's power is increased further.
What is a worthy pay-back for being brought back out of the tortures of Hades or Gehenna, for a second chance at life (and maybe salvation) ?
Posted
On a different subject, and this is addressed to Edena, I notice in all the examples you gave us, the common thread seems to be a driving ideal behind the character. Something uncompromising and unchanging. Do you believe that such is necessary for heroics, or is it mearly your style. Do you believe that a dynamic, adaptable character can be heroic?
Comment
Of course.
Heroes come in all colors.
As mentioned, Frodo is not Aragorn, yet many would argue both are heroic (and some would argue neither are.)
Serroi was not Moreta, and neither of them remotely resembled Eowyn (I think the fans of Pern would faint, if Moreta was portrayed as a Warrior Princess.)
Ged of Earthsea is totally unlike John Carter of Barsoom, but both are heroic.
Heck, what about Gollum? He was the one who destroyed the Ring. And what chance did he ever have, from the word Go, at recovery and salvation - yet he did try, at least for a while, for just that.
I just happen to like stubborn characters who take strong stances, and stick by them.
I guess I need more misadventures with Helms of Opposition. If Edena put one of those on, methinks a refreshing (Horrors!) change would be in order.
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To Mark
Mark posted
It's been a different world for years. The Internet has been around longer than 3E. This site and the people who frequent it have been around for quite some time as well. What's the real problem?
Comment
I'm old, that's the problem.
I'm only 35, but in this Real World where Change is the only constant, that's a long time.
Near where I live is a park filled with deciduous trees.
One time, when I was a kid, we drove down the road through that park, and my father spoke of computers one day having 480 kilobytes of RAM.
I was amazed. That was an unthinkable amount of memory. Something out of Science Fiction. The most powerful home computer in existence had 16 kilobytes of memory, and they cost over a thousand dollars (in the money of that time, when automobiles cost three to five thousand dollars.)
Now, of course, a computer without at least 256 megabytes of RAM is antiquated, and the new ones have DDR RAM measured in gigabytes. And LaCie just released a 500 Gigabyte hard drive to the public.
So yeah, things change.
I remember when the Internet was an unthinkable affair - literally. It could not be imagined, for no groundwork existed for the imagination to conceive of such things. (Anyone remember manual typewriters?)
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To The Forsaken One
The Forsaken One posted:
Ok fine all the same, just glad to see ytou are posting again and offcourse the hopes of that you'll tay. This kinda posts is what we do it all for!
Btw the 3rd IR posting rate was at least at par with the hivemind threads at the end. That was called devotion to the game.
Comment
Thank you, my friend. And again, good to see you again.
I hope the Rokugan IR is continuing, and is fun for all.
Hivemind Threads? Are you referring to the 3rd IR, or something else?
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To Psion
Psion posted
Something of a mix. Two players are members of the "bloodguard," an elite cadre of warriors in service to the local prince - one is neutral and one is LN. The former is in it to kick tail, the latter is in it for a sense of duty. The other players are all CG, and are pretty much motivated by altruism and the fight against tyranny.
Comment
Sounds fun. Although lawful neutral is my least favorite alignment ... but that's just me. Most of my characters dislike Khelben Blackstaff Arunsun, who is the epitome of that alignment.
I guess chaotic good is my favorite alignment, or perhaps neutral good.
Neutral evil is my second favorite alignment (as long as the evil is towards the DM's NPCs only, and never towards the party. Never.)
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To Darkness
Darkness
Hand and Eye of Piratecat
Moderator
Not if you consider the respective number of posters...
Comment
(sighs in wistful remembrance)
We had over 20 posters. It was fun. I sincerely hope I'll be able to play in, or run, games that fun again.
Darkness, I just wish you had had more fun. I remember Shantyra Starfire, and the Baklunish Confederation, which you ran.
My apologies that things did not work out. If you did not have fun, I failed as a DM. My regrets.
I hope you can remember the good times that were had.
I never heard from Maudlin again. I wish I had. I wanted to thank him for the maps. They were really nice.
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To Xarlen
Xarlen posted:
Speaking of heroism...
XP doesn't do it. You shouldn't get rewarded with XP because XP isn't important if you fail, and die. If the PCs do something very heroic, very grand, very risky, they should get a slight bonus, simply to encourage it. Fortune favors the bold and stupid. Check the link.
Comment
If the characters received a very large experience bonus for heroism, do you think that would help? Or simply cheapen heroism further?
I mean, when someone really cares, and really tries, and risks their character in good roleplaying, that should be worth something. I think so, at least.
The same with players who play truly villainous characters who are audacious and brave in their villainry (burning a defenseless town isn't audacious. Taking on the rightful King and all his royal guard, just might be. Hurting women isn't darkly heroic. Challenging an epic female paladin when you're 5th level, just might be.)
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To Henry
Henry
August Moderator
I believe the word you are looking for is "snicker." And no, it's not a candy bar.
Comment
I am glad words like Sniggar are not heard more on these message boards.
Kudos, Henry.
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To Henry
Henry
August Moderator
posted:
One of the posters here has one of the top ten greatest .sig's of all time. It starts by some professor quoting astronomical odds against success, and the professor goes on to say something like, "What kinds of people go into battle against those odds?"
The answer given is, "Heroes, professor. Heroes."
A hero is someone who goes into a dangerous situation and does the right thing anyway, despite the fact that it means death or bodily harm. This is why we call firefighters and policemen "heroes." It's why we call some military personnel "heroes." (depends on the time and situation, but most of us have had military people in our countries' pasts that fit that bill.) The trapping of D&D as a game, can dilute that somewhat, because in order for someone to be a hero, there must be an element of risk or loss involved. The D&D game's challenge rating is built so that an average encounter will most likely not kill you; you will survive almost all D&D encounters at your challenge level with low to no risk - after all, where is the fun if you are rolling up two characters at every session, JUST to make it through the session?
Comment:
Agreed. Although heroes come in many flavors.
It can be heroic simply to stand up against someone in your own party if they intend to commit a wrong, and your character is moralistic.
Especially heroic, if everyone else in the party stands with the other guy.
Posted
However, the element of risk for a greater good is what makes games like D&D fun to play.
Sure, we have comedy games, we have dark and gritty games like CoC, but most people can only take so much of this in repeated dosages, before getting tired of it. I know that if I GM too many sessions of CoC in a row (say, about 15 to 20 sessions of it), I start to actually depress myself. After all, my creative processes go something along the lines of, "Let's see, what new perverted and mind-numbing horrors can I come up with today to spring on my players?" You need a break, and part of that break is ouright heroism.
Comment:
As I said, I think D&D lends itself to heroism more than the other RPGs out there (except perhaps Hackmaster, which is D&D under another name.)
Posted
Now, heroism requires risk of loss, and the more powerful a threat is that the players can validly defeat or outwit, the greater the thrill of victory. What do players remember more fondly - the time they rescued 20 slaves from the Slave Lords, or the time they suffered a Total Party Kill in the attempt? It matters not if they were captured, got thrown in a cell, and were beaten severely - as long as they get that emotional payoff that comes with ultimate victory. But if they are scripted to do so, then the victory is hollow. It's a fine line, but one that a DM must walk to help create some of the best gaming sessions that are remembered for a long time.
Comment
That's what I was trying to get at, when I said the thrill of victory must go hand in hand with the agony of defeat.
If there is no risk of painful defeat and loss, sometimes there is no feeling of accomplishment or achievement in victory.
Just my opinion, of course.
If you take me at my word ... and you realize that Edena has died 24 times ... then you know I've felt the pain of defeat quite a number of times.
It does hurt. That's me. For good or bad. It hurts quite badly. The greater the risk, the greater the chance at a fulfilling victory, the greater the loss if failure occurs.
Now, you will say being killed and resurrected 24 times is ridiculous, and you are probably right.
But that isn't my point.
My point is that, when I lose characters, it oftentimes hurts, and sometimes it hurts quite badly. For good or bad, that's me.
I have refused to play in more safe, sedate games where the risk of death is small - I continue to insist on taking the big risks. Sometimes it works out and is a blast. Sometimes there is victory and one feels good walking out of the game. And sometimes, disaster occurs.
On a final note, in recent years, my roleplaying has turned more to romance, and less to anything else.
That's what happens when you are 35 and unmarried, I guess. (sighs)
Posted:
I once had a playing group that played very unwisely, and as a result they lost three of their number to thugs. Two of the three were returned after having a part of their bodies removed as penance, and the third was returned - though only his eyeballs. Two regenerations and a resurrection later, all the PC's remembered that event poignantly, but as a monument to playing more carefully, and they learned from their mistake.
Comment:
I can't comment on this without knowing more.
Heroism is unwise, by definition, if you consider the dice do not care, and if the odds are against you so are the dice.
And yet, I play heroically, and it seems wiser to play like that than to play cautiously. So go figure ... I cannot comment on your party.
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To Mark
Mark posted:
Yup. One of my favorite sigs. it belongs to Dagger75-
Prof Sharp: No, no, you can't! You have a 95 percent probability of failure! What sort of people would fight a battle with *those* odds?
Bionic One: Heroes, Professor. Heroes.
Bionic Six
Comment:
Who is this famous Sig? Can you elaborate on it?
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To Reapersaurus
reapersaurus posted
Edena -
you keep saying the word "Heroism"
I do not think this word means what you think it means.
In a world that includes the ability to raise from the dead, there is NO SUCH THING as Heroism as you are using the term, in my eyes.
Your use of the word heroism implies a personal cost.
If the only cost a character must pay is money, or time, or reputation, than that is not the same kind of heroism that I think of in fantasy.
Comment:
Heroism comes in different guises.
If your party is about to butcher an innocent town, and your paladin stands against the party, is it heroism or stupidity?
If your character is darkly evil, and takes great risks to kill the famed paladin, is that heroic or simply villainous?
If valor in battle is considered heroic, but your character is a pacifist, and willing to endure being a social outcast and hated for his views, is that heroism?
If your character is a thief, who steals from a great and noble lady, then repents and openly gives the goods back, risking imprisonment and death, is that heroic? (Maybe, your thief is in love with her? Maybe, he hopes she will return the love?)
What about a female character (played by a female player) in a world that is totally sexist, where an armed female is arrested and enslaved on the spot?
Or, how about a character willing to negotiate a peace treaty with the illithid, going to a public conference to talk to them?
Or, an elf, going to the same conference to talk about peace with the drow?
Or, a drow who worships Lolth, who honestly believes all elves would benefit by worshipping Lolth (after all, did she not make the drow strong?), and wishes to bring empowerment and strength to the elves, as allies under the mighty banner of the Demon Queen of Spiders? And this elf, goes to Evermeet to argue her case before Queen Amlaruil.
No, heroism is not necessarily about rushing into combat with a sword, and taking on 20 assorted bad guys. That is the cliche.
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To Zouron
zouron posted:
when did I go away from necromancers? not this centuary LOL nor the last or the next
Comment:
(vast sigh of relief, hearing this!)
my two favorite character classes are paladins and necromancers odd mix but I like
(third place is firmly placed on fighters).
That said my sunday character would be more what you are use to seeing me do LOL, she is a elven girl that has sold her soul to gain magical powers, to become a wizard (rather instead she became a cleric.. but she isn't aware of the differences as it is a low magic world etc). However since she soul her very being for this power to a demon, she is no longer like an elf, she is shunned by those of light, rejected by all that is holy and sacred etc...
Comment:
I'm willing to bet that she thinks of herself as being very brave.
She comes off as a tragic character. One who committed an act without appreciating the consequences, because ... she was young? Naive? Misinformed? Duped? She will find out the truth soon enough.
It would be heroic to attempt to rescue her soul, but it sounds to me like everyone finds it easier, and more convenient, to simply write her off.
Posted
very interesting character, a bit self preserving which is unusual for me ohh well.
and no heroism I will argue is not a matter of stupidity, the ability to sacrifies oneself is not a matter of intelligence or lack thereof it is a personality really.
Comment:
You of all people should understand the Norse philosophy, which my character Edena espouses.
You ought to post it here. It would be an eye-opener for most. For the Norse thinking is very different from our modern thinking in America.
Problem is, that would be bringing Religion to ENWorld, and they disallow that.
Perhaps you could post your thoughts in Nutkinland, my friend?
- - -
To Joshua
Joshua Dyal
Member
Registered: Jan 2002
Location: Detroit, MI
Posts: 2236
posted:
Edena, as usual, I find it very difficult to read more than two or three paragraphs of your posts before my mind starts to wander and I start wondering if there's a point anywhere in there worth going to the trouble to find. You could really benefit from some conciseness!
Comment:
I come from the Detroit area, from Plymouth. Greetings to a fellow Michigander!
My writing is long, wanders off topic and back and around and back worse than a drunken dwarf, and is as clear as a gloomy Michigan day in winter.
However, I do like to write. It's fun to write. And since I cannot write professionally, I write where I can.
Boards like this are an outlet not only for thoughts, but creativity, and ENWorld has been a Godsend for me. The IR was one of the funnest gaming experiences of my entire life.
Posted:
I'm not sure exactly what you mean. If you're lamenting the lack of heroic stunts that your players are trying, get some new players. If you're lamenting that the system itself discourages over the top heroism, stop smoking that weird plant growing out back and read the rules again. D&D is so over-the-top in terms of potential "heroic" action that it's almost a parody of a fantasy game, a super-hero game, or as hong says, a wuxia movie.
Comment:
A cautionary note, if I may. Reference to drugs is not disallowed on ENWorld, but the reference above is a flippant comment about something very serious.
I have watched a drug called alcohol almost kill my father, and break up my family. I have witnessed prescription drugs utterly change the thinking and lives of those who took them.
When a miligram of a drug - a measurement so small that you could not detect such a weight in your hand - can make the difference, literally, between life and death for you, or between continuous severe pain and peace, then this is a subject about something truly powerful, and truly dangerous, In Real Life.
You will never hear me make such flippant statements.
I do not smoke. Do not drink. I do not, and have never, touched drugs such as (pick the name of an illegal drug.) That is suicide.
In the game, if your heroic character ends up getting killed from some suicidal act, you roll up a new character.
If, In Real Life, you commit suicide or harm yourself with drugs, there are no clerics with healing spells, and there is no appeal for what has been done to you. You must live with it for the rest of your life.
Do I make my point?
I do not believe, and never said, that D&D discourages heroism. Indeed, I said D&D is more conducive to heroism than any other RPG (except perhaps Hackmaster, which is D&D, really.)
I said that a DM must promote a situation in his campaign where heroism (and by heroism I mean anything that could be interpreted that way, which is to say hundreds of different kinds of behavior) flourishes, and is welcome, and is wanted - both by the DM and by all the players in the group.
The players must encourage it. If I am trying to be heroic, and the players do not wish this style of play, I will not have much fun, for they will discourage me at every turn.
Now, as I also said, if I had been born later, and had started gaming when there was an internet, and had access to some of the VERY FINE DMs on ENWorld, I am sure my gaming experience would have been better.
But I was born earlier, in an age where you went to the gaming group, and hoped they played in a way congenial to you, and you got pot-luck on the DM. Maybe he or she was a good DM, and maybe not, but he or she was the ONLY game in town, and that was that.
Gods, I wish people would stop taking the Internet for granted. It allows for possibilities undreamed of only 10 years ago. The older posters know this! People are taking for granted the ability to perform ... for lack of better words ... undreamed of feats by the thinking of my own generation.
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To Creamsteak
creamsteak posted:
Oh, Edena, I'm one tenaciously heroic player. I'm also semi-heroic in real life (getting injured for confronting a particularly abusive individual I won't bring up here), so it's in my blood. I don't believe in stopping, so long as your cause is justified. So, as a player, I don't stop. So, in return, I agree with the majority here that the Player (and DM, don't you guys forget that the DM is equally important in this respect), are important to the cause.
Comment:
Hey there, Creamsteak, my friend! Nice to see you again.
Everyone, Creamsteak was in the third IR. He played the Delrunian Alliance (Tenh, the Theocracy of the Pale, and other places round about in Greyhawk) and he was a great player.
I have finally been in Missouri.
It was a far more beautiful state than I had envisioned it, and I wish to say so.
A lush land of rolling hills, river valleys, stately homes, and two not so small cities. Stately homes and churches on the top of hills, and quiet tree shaded roads.
Posted:
Now, on another note (revives) which stretches slightly off topic, I use the solution Monte provided for in the DMG that seems to often get overlooked: Alternate material components. I have a short list (six items, listed below) that have been used in my campaign setting to raise the dead, and I'll add more when it's time to add more. Each material component can only be used once on a particular individual, and each component can only be found in a limited quantity. This simple little solution makes death and being brought back particularly heroic.
Comment:
Sounds great to me.
After all, when someone DIES, that's a major affair. Why not, then, a major affair to restore that dead person to life?
Posted
Material Components
A globe of Blessed Adamantine (most adamantine is considered corrupt till it's treated in my campaign setting), only found in a few locations (meteorites, the underdark, the trollforge)
Sacrificing a sacred animal (called Mai-Mai Skuuper), who must agree that the sacrifice is a worthy cause on it's own
The blood of a very powerful and evil creature (Night Troll), however this can only be used on a good or neutral character, and they instantly become the creature's alignment upon resurrection.
Bringing the body to four different rune shrines.
Gathering six life Tarot Cards and using it on the body (minor artifacts).
Sacrificing your own life to bring someone back, whom you must have loved in the eyes of the diety of the cleric casting the spell.
Once, and only once, a character can be resurrected by the avatar of a god-in person.
And soon I'm going to add that frozen flower that only grows in a specific garden in the elemental plane of ice, which must be sacrificed (and they grow so slow, and are so sacred to the people that guard them), which makes it another 'honorable deaths only' revive.
And those are all just examples. I'm sure you all can come up with some great ones that I never would think of, but it's by far a better solution that simply ousting revives, In my humbe opinion.
Comment:
In your campaign, heroism is for the truly heroic!
For as many have said, it is more heroic when death has real sting, and resurrection is difficult.
It sounds like, in your game, that resurrection is very difficult indeed. As a matter of fact, it will take heroic deeds simply to accomplish the resurrection.
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Pardons. Too tired to continue further right now.
I guess I'm not in the shape I was when I ran the third IR.
I'll get back to this thread later.
Zouron, Darkness, Creamsteak, it's really good to talk to you again.
Cheers to my fellow IR players, and to my friends. (thumbs up)
Edena_of_Neith
