I wish D&D could have been more heroic

[Edena_of_Neith]

To Zouron

Posted by Zouron

Heroic and DnD is much more a matter of the players then DnD in my experience, I myself is not exactly one to be the coward normally, which I am learning to the bones currently, playing a paladin (in my version ;-) ) whom has a severe problem with his party as they are somewhat less willing to risk themselves then he is.

Comment

Hey there, Zouron. Nice to see you again, my friend!
Folks, meet one of the players of the IR. A good player, all around, IR or face-to-face.
Zouron, though, what calamity has befallen you?! A PALADIN? You, playing a paladin? Where are your evil necromancers (one of which conquered Chult, Halruaa, Dambrath, Luirien, and Var the Golden to create a vast empire of dark wizards and undead warriors) ?
Well, the old saying that it's time for a change, applies here, I guess. You are now into paladins, and I'm starting with the evil necromancers. LOL!
I still say the DM has to encourage heroism. Yeah, the players have to want it too, but the DM runs the show, ya know! (well, at least, he THINKS he does, and half the time it's actually true.)

Posted

and as for normal characters... don't think I have to many of those (anyone think zouron the dark in the IR was just your average self preserving john doe? hehe),

Comment

I would say there is NO such thing as a normal character.
I certainly hope not.
As for Zouron the Dark, Archmage of the Magocracy, he was not normal, but he WAS normal for the IR (Gods help the poor Forgotten Realms setting. You folks should read what we did to that campaign ... (chuckles))

Posted

but some people are not as willing to risk their characters,

Comment

And some are gunshy, from too many lost characters. Yeah, the agony of defeat is ... well, agonizing.
Still, the chance should be there for the taking, if the bold player desires it ...

Posted

I am not sure there are all that many people (of course some excepted no doubt!) who thinks it is wise smart or intelligent to be a hero, superheroes in much game discussion I been in are almost considered a derrogating term which pretty much means being stupid beyond belief charging into hopeless battles one will loss and if you win then because you are a munchkin or some similar thing.

Comment

Ok, I gotta say something I feel really strongly about here.
THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A SMART HERO. THEY ARE ALL DUMMIES.
There. I said it. (Paladins should have a maximum allowed Intelligence of 6, you know.)
After all, anyone who needlessly risks his or her life, and gets himself or herself killed in some gruesome way, for no reason (read: it didn't save the land, didn't help the King, didn't aid his or her friends, and otherwise was meaningless) has got to be stupid, no?

Now that we have that matter settled, that Intelligence is separate from heroism, we can get on with heroism.
(I suppose Peter Jackson's Aragorn would slug me for saying that, but then I am willing to bet a lot of people think Aragorn would be pretty stupid, if he tried those stunts using 20 sided dice and not foretold endings created by the film industry.)
(Please never tell a paladin I said the above! I would not wish to be hacked into mincemeat by an angry paladin! )

Yet ... intelligence is not what it's about. It never was. Heroism is ... well, heroism.
Intelligence, or whether a hero is intelligent or not intelligent, or whether he is doing stupid things or smart things, is less relevant to me than whether he is heroic.

Posted

This I guess is just not an age of heroism overall, doesn't stop me personally, cause rpg (and DnD) is an adventure and darn it if I am gonna miss out because I withdrew once to many times!

Comment

Cheers, Zouron. Enjoy yourself. I see you are having a good time, so go for it!
As for our Real World, what can I say? I'm no hero, and will leave heroics to those who wish to buck the system, which encourages other things ... cynicism and mundanity seem to rule our lives in Reality.

 

[Edena_of_Neith]

More Replies to Replies

To Echohawk

Echohawk posted

Homer voice: Mmmmmmmmmmmm.... Paranoia.
Now there's a game I'd like to see a d20 version of

Comment

So would I. Paranoia is a blast. My character earned the ultimate reward any Troubleshooter can earn.
For you see, he was immersed in liquified petroleum, and was thus compelled to shout: Nobody light a match!
They lit no matches. They started in with the Flamethrowers instead.
Vaporization. Ah, sweet Nirvana, the ultimate reward for the peerless Troubleshooter!

Incidentally, I had the best Paranoia gamemaster I think southeastern Michigan has ever had.
To avoid a fight over the matter, and to protect his privacy, I won't name names. Those who played in his Paranoia games, will know of whom I speak!
(When the noise level is 110 decibels for 10 straight hours, from delighted players, you know something is going on there ... hehehehehe ...)

- - -

To Megamania

Megamania posted:

Movies and books are tightly controlled by the writer. As such the heroes will always succeed.

Comment

My older brother had a saying about that: The Bad Guys are always winning until the writer makes them lose.
My older brother also said: The Bad Guys should always win but the writer always makes them lose.
And my older brother, was right.

Posted

Real life- Heroes are killed before court, die in burning buildings...etc
D&D is a mix. The DM must CREATE a moment for heroism then the PCs must do it....and not role a 1.
I understand what you mean however. This is one of the reasons I liked the game "Torg" from the late eighties/early nineties. It encouraged and gave rewards for being heroic.

Comment

When Real Life gets into the game (and it DOES get in ... or at least, it got in in those games I played in - never in those I ran, as the IR would prove) then the Game goes awry.
Why shouldn't it go awry in such cases? Real Life and the game have nothing in common, except for the players themselves.

I see you mention Dark Sun characters in your signature, including Rajaat.
I must admit that Dark Sun is a place that makes for difficult heroics. If any setting ever created made heroism difficult, that setting did.

- - -

To Ascending Crane

Ascending Crane posted:

Methinks Edena needs a good D&D group, of all new players.
Or something.
The magic isn't in the paper, or the ink, or the dice - it's in the minds and imagination of the players and the DM.

Comment

YES to the second!
Give me my IR players any day, though. They were, and are, top notch players.

Posted

It sounds like you've lost it somewhere along the way.

Comment

LOL! Heh. I think my former DMs lost it (not you, Zouron!)

(said dead seriously)
They got too bogged down, too set in their thinking, and certainly too interested in keeping their campaign worlds staid and set in stone, as unchangeable as the Firmaments of Reality.

- - -

To Ranger

Ranger posted:

Well, I'd like to think you can reward XP for heroic acts in D&D, albeit not a standard rule but more like a suggestion in the DMG. Then again, almost everything in the Dungeon Masters' Guide are guidelines, suggestions, and variant rules for DM to introduce in the game.

Comment:

I think you are quite right.
Experience points were originally awarded for killing things, and now for overcoming challenges on a tactical level.
Why not experience for heroism? Or villainry? Or just plain good roleplaying (and I mean REAL experience for that, not minor handouts), or even for specific things (such as falling in love, perhaps? That's not so easy a thing for a character to do!)

Posted

You are right, the DM has to create opportunity for the PC to shine, but that's half the ingredient. The players has to be able to pick up and seize the opportunity, or out of the blue come up with a risky plan. After all, a heroic act usually involves some high risks.
Hence the saying "you are either brave or foolish."

Comment

Yes, the player must get involved.
And, the other players must not crap on that player for so-called stupid acts.
And, the DM must not punish that player for what he thinks are stupid acts.
I've seen both happen, to me and to many others who wanted a little heroism.

- - -

To Mark

Mark posted:

It's been said above in a number of ways, but not, IMO, inclusively enough. It's not the game system that brings Heroism to the game, it is the Players, the DM and the Setting.
That said, there are certainly any number of ways that Heroism can manifest itself within a single game or campaign. I'd venture to guess that if you are not finding Heroism in your game, you either need to get on the same wavelength with your DM (which is not always possible) or adjust the setting in which you play.
Hope that helps!

Comment:

I wish I had had ENWorld, back when I played regularly.
I am sure I would have found a lot of top notch DMs here, like yourself and others who have replied to this thread.
In those days, there was no Internet, and at the local gaming group only two or three DMs, and you had to accept what was offered.
Potluck, as it were.
It's a different world now.

- - -

To Bihor

Bihor posted:

I had players in Dark Sun, playing lowlife elven thief group, orgenising ilegal gladiator mach sometime fixted. Even though it wasn't there style, they did heroic things.
Once they where in front of a almost dead dragon-king, I think it was Nibane, the gladiator and the fire-cleric desided to take a shot a him. They took only 3 steps and met a air invisible elemental. With there two best fighters out in a sigle round they gamble there way out with the two almost corps.
The players made there caracter heroic, even in a world with no hero.

Comment:

(solemn look) I know the Dark Sun setting well. If your players managed to create true heroes in that setting, you have some really fine players. Tell them I said so. And it reflects well on you as a DM, for they could not accomplish such without you.
Even I would not attempt to play a heroic character in Dark Sun. It does not seem like there is any place for them (did you know, folks, that the paladin is not a character class in that setting? The GOOD GUYS in Dark Sun practice slavery, butchery, racism (of the most ghastly kind), cannibalism, and violence of the most wretched sort. The bad guys ... well, the truly bad guys in Dark Sun rival the Darklords of Ravenloft ...)

- - -

To Voneth

Voneth posted:

Like a 1st level PC in D&D can choose to be coward and self-preserving or be heroic.
Yeah they can, but I bet the coward lives longer.

Comment:

I admit, it's harder to be heroic when you have 4 hit points and an Armor Class of 15.
Most of my low level characters focused on survival. Heroism came later (does this mean heroism is a luxury of the high level character? I hope not ...)
Being a 1st level paladin (or anything of the like) is especially difficult.

... Yeah, that's right, Fighto, you get up there and kill those 20 orcs!
Yeah, I'll do that! Nevermind I have 1 hit point left.
FOR THE GLORY OF IT ALL, AND FOR THE CAUSE OF GOOD, CHARGE! ...

 

[The Forsaken One]

I'm enjoying reading this thread hehe. Old school respond and comment style from Edena Good topic btw, we haven't seen any real heros in our RL D&D games for about 2 years orso. Last one I can remember was a dwarven fighter I ran who was attacked by like 60 dwarven guards and they all missed hehe. So they all ran off crying and shouting some avatar had come to slay them all for their betrayal and stuff. Kinda fun but just lucky hehe. But it is possible =]

Btw Edena, I'm running a Call of Cthulhu game in the IC forum and one of my players hasn't been showing up for more then two weeks and we're replacing him. So if you could find them time and are interested we've got a spot for you to play if you are intrested. You would be stuck with a already created character though... Or we could shove in another at the start of next chapter which could take a little while allthough we are running against the end of chapter one.

[edit: Live for the Swarm!!! ]

 

[Bagpuss]

Re: To Bagpuss

Please note: I will be doing extensive editing of Edena's text in an attempt to reduce the text to eassy rather than a thesis on the subject.

Bagpuss posted:

Can Edena ever express herself in less than 1000 words?

Comment

Edena_of_Neith is a male, if I may say so myself.

That would be a no then.

Bagpuss Posted

Out of interest how many of the heroic characters you've mentioned are dead?

Comment

Edena has been killed 24 times.
Osilovar has been killed about 3 times.
Cyndelle was killed and remained dead until...
Trillirra was attacked, wounded, and killed by elven PCs
Valiante the Valorous. He was killed so many times....
Valiante was killed by the Grey Wraith in Dragonlance, and became a wraith himself. He was then struck by a Mace of Disruption, upon which was rolled the D effect.

Ah when I said dead I meant you know died, dead, game over, do not pass go do not collect £200. All the characters I've mentioned have died once, and never come back. Resurrection, Raise Dead and the like is impossible in a lot of the games I mentioned above and even in our D&D it is highly restricted.

Having characters killed is a bummer.
It's one of those things about games that if the game means something to you, and you put a lot of effort into it, then victory is sweet, and defeat is agonizing. (Ask any athlete.)
Resurrection is an option, if you have friends (Edena will tell you friends mean a lot!!!) and money, and good luck to boot, but resurrection does not take out the sting of defeat.

Here's where I have to disagree, sure having a character die can be upsetting, but depending on the manner of the characters death it can be rewarding and memorable.

Resurrection, Raise Dead and the like is in my opinion one of the worst things in D&D. Its not heroic to throw yourself into a battle against impossible odds if you know even if you happen to die you will be raised later and it will be as if nothing happened. There is no risk.

Resurrection does not take the sting out of defeat, it cheapens the sacrifice of a hero is willing to make for his cause. Also its a mistake to think that a character dieing is a defeat, if the goal of the character is brought nearer or completed in their act of ultimate scarifice then its a victory.

I think many roleplayer's get too attached to their characters, in such a way that they don't act in character when it comes to bringing them back. Most campaign worlds have 'heavens' that heros go to, if they had died in battle and earned their place in heaven would they really want to come back.

You mentioned before Sturm in Dragonlance, people remember him because he was willing to make the ultimate sacrifice for what he believed in, if he got raised from the dead 5 minutes later it would have completely lost its impact, and been a none event.

Give me the agony of defeat (for there will ALWAYS be the agony of defeat) if I can have a chance at the thrill of sweet victory.

There is very little agony in defeat if after a few magic words your character is up on his feat and healthy again.

Its my opinion that what makes a hero, a hero is nothing to do with skills, feats, powers, etc. but the ability to face your fears and carry on inspite of them.

The real heros in the Lord of the Rings are not Gimli, Legolas or Aragorn but Sam, Frodo, Merry and Pippin. Legolas and the like were confident in their skill at arms and that they could deal with most of the problems such a journey might present. But the hobbits had no skill and had never left their neighbourhood before let alone travelled the great distances involved. They didn't have to do it either, they had plenty of opportunities to pack it in.

In a game with easy resurrection what does a character (or player) have to fear? Nothing. Without a real threat to stand against you can't really be a hero.

I mean am I a hero sat here at this computer? No. But if the house across the street caught fire and I rushed in to save the occupant then maybe I could be called a hero. I could also be called stupid perhaps, but most heros have little regard for their own safety. Until I face some risk I can't show or discover if I'm a hero or not.

With ressurection easily available your character is rarely at any real risk, I think thats one of the reasons lots of players prefer low-level games, the stakes are higher.

 

[DM_Matt]

The last time I played an exceptionally heroic character, she rode (alone) after a fleeing Big Bad that the DM wanted to live (only a certain chracter was supposed to kill him, and he wasnt at the session). He fudged rolls and stats and made inconsistant and just plain wrong rulings to ensure that the Big Bad won, and altough the battle was quite cinematic, my character died and said Big Bad got away.

Some Dms don't like heroism to get in the way of their well-laid plans.

 

[Celtavian]

Re

Question. Does not the ability to have your character raised take some of the wind out of the sails of the idea of the heroic character risking it all. It's no longer an issue of facing certain death and ultimate defeat, but rather a set back. I would think coming back from the dead 20 or so times would certainly lessen its presense as a true threat vs. an inconveniance. If death isn't something to be truly feared on a truly primal and total level, then how heroic is it to stare it in the face? How much does putting your favorite character in harms way mean if the risk of truly permanent damage is truly absent?

I tend to agree with this. I don't outlaw ressurection and have in fact used it on several occasions to get the action going. I mostly leave it up to the players.

Personally, I wish they rewrite the ressurection spell line to give it a percentage that deity grants the ressurection as a rule, say a 1% chance per level.

I dont' see why this wouldn't be reasonable because every being ressurected is a soul no longer able to serve in the afterlife. Then again, the DM could just arbitrate this using his own judgement.

It is still hard to tell a player their favorite character can't be ressurected if they die because of an unlucky save or lucky crit by the enemy. It is even worse if the die in a very unheroic manner such as at the start of a major battle or some lucky henchmen.

Heroic death is hard to arbitrate. I generally follow a house rule that is summed up as follows: If you aren't on a major quest that your Deity would be concerned with, your deity doesn't allow you to come back. If you die completing the quest, your deity rewards you by not allowing you to come back.

 

[Volaran]

I would agree that rampant resurrections do take a lot of steam out of a good heroic death. In the game world I play in, this has been delt with in a few ways.

Typically, even clerics powerful enough to cast such a spell will only do so at great personal sacrifice, or with the presence of some powerful sign. In addition to this, aside from the simple "resurrections don't work if the soul is unwilling to return" in the PHB, our DM has enforced a high DC Will save in order to even be able to want to return. The presence of one's deity or one's ideal afterlife shouldn't be an easy to leave.

The few characters we have had return from the dead are always altered in subtle ways, worked out between the player and the DM. Commonly, rather like being a guest in an unfamiliar house, the character at the very least will never seem at ease again.



On a different subject, and this is addressed to Edena, I notice in all the examples you gave us, the common thread seems to be a driving ideal behind the character. Something uncompromising and unchanging. Do you believe that such is necessary for heroics, or is it mearly your style. Do you believe that a dynamic, adaptable character can be heroic?

 

[Mark]

Re: More Replies to Replies

Mark posted:

It's been said above in a number of ways, but not, IMO, inclusively enough. It's not the game system that brings Heroism to the game, it is the Players, the DM and the Setting.
That said, there are certainly any number of ways that Heroism can manifest itself within a single game or campaign. I'd venture to guess that if you are not finding Heroism in your game, you either need to get on the same wavelength with your DM (which is not always possible) or adjust the setting in which you play.
Hope that helps!

Comment:

I wish I had had ENWorld, back when I played regularly.
I am sure I would have found a lot of top notch DMs here, like yourself and others who have replied to this thread.
In those days, there was no Internet, and at the local gaming group only two or three DMs, and you had to accept what was offered.
Potluck, as it were.
It's a different world now.

It's been a different world for years. The Internet has been around longer than 3E. This site and the people who frequent it have been around for quite some time as well. What's the real problem?

 

[Edena_of_Neith]

Heh. One thing at a time here. I cannot answer (right now, at this moment) all the questions!

Forsaken One, it's good to see you again!
Folks, Forsaken One was in the IRs. In the third IR, his character and his Swarm defeated and whelmed the world of Athas, and turned that entire world (and Crystal Sphere) into his own dominion.
Although the Swarm shared a single consciousness, and free will was denied the people of Athas (they were all incorporated into the Swarm), it can at least be said that Rajaat and his Dark Champions went down to inglorious defeat and annihilation.

I cannot join in the Call of Cthlulu game, Forsaken One.
My regrets. Thank you for the offer!
It is still uncertain if I can remain online, now that I have returned after a 2 month absense not of my choosing.

 

[The Forsaken One]

Ok fine all the same, just glad to see ytou are posting again and offcourse the hopes of that you'll tay. This kinda posts is what we do it all for!

Btw the 3rd IR posting rate was at least at par with the hivemind threads at the end. That was called devotion to the game.