D&D General If faith in yourself is enough to get power, do we need Wizards and Warlocks etc?

[Voadam]

Actually, I am putting the creators of old school D&D as the arbiters of what makes sense in D&D. Other explanations are definitely possible, but IMO they should be used for other classes or in other games.

Gygax?

Gygax in Oe does not mention gods at all in connection with clerics. Nothing about gods in the entire cleric description. Gods start getting referenced in Supplement I Greyhawk in passing as beings but nothing connecting them to clerics. Even in Supplement IV Gods, Demi-Gods, and Heroes there is no discussion of any connection between clerics and gods other than some specific individuals having cleric powers.

Gygax in the 1e PH does say that "The cleric is dedicated to a deity, or deities," and that "All clerics have their own spells, bestowed upon them by their deity for correct and diligent prayers and deeds."

But in the 1e DMG Gygax reveals that first and second level cleric spells are not being granted by gods or supernatural beings at all in his default 1e D&D cosmology, third to fifth are being granted not by gods but by servants of gods, and gods only directly grant sixth and seventh level spells.

Moldvay in B/X Basic says that "Clerics are humans who have dedicated themselves to the service of a god or goddess. They are trained in fighting and casting spells. As a cleric advances in level, he or she is granted the use of more and more spells. However, clerics do not receive any spells until they reach 2nd level (and have proven their devotion to their god or goddess)." and then never mentions gods again.

And 2e has the full on spellcasting priests of non-deity forces and philosophies.

 

[Micah Sweet]

If someone betrays Athea, the goddess of nonbelief, she instantly robs them of any powers they might have--and she knows, instantaneously, of the betrayal, so there is zero time between "someone has broken faith with me" and "I have shut down all troublemakers." That is literally the text of the rules in 3e.

You cannot have, for example, a disagreement about whether Bahamut prefers law over good or good over law. He will instantly know what the disagreement is, and he will assuredly have a position, and declare at least one of the factions in error. Any such persons will instantly be stripped of any and all powers derived from him, for exactly as long as they remain in error. He can, of course, change his mind at any time, but presumably he would wait until the moment they have shown true contrition (which, again, he can instantly know because of how 3e divinity works), and then the power instantly comes back on again.

There can be no possibility of a genuine doctrinal disagreement, because anyone who actually strays is instantly depowered, and losing your powers is a pretty flippin obvious reason for people to decide you're dead wrong.

You can't have secret traitors pretending to be faithful. You can't have honest-mistake zealots believing that they're doing the right thing while actually committing horrible evils. You can't even really have heterodoxy, because the deity herself can simply pop in and clarify exactly what they want, and anyone who continues to disobey, well, they were told what was correct, time to cut them off from the divine credit card.

I don't use the rules of 3e. Gods in the worlds of D&D I use aren't omniscient. They're just very powerful. They can pay attention to a lot of stuff at once, but not everything and everyone.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Gygax?

Gygax in Oe does not mention gods at all in connection with clerics. Nothing about gods in the entire cleric description. Gods start getting referenced in Supplement I Greyhawk in passing as beings but nothing connecting them to clerics. Even in Supplement IV Gods, Demi-Gods, and Heroes there is no discussion of any connection between clerics and gods other than some specific individuals having cleric powers.

Gygax in the 1e PH does say that "The cleric is dedicated to a deity, or deities," and that "All clerics have their own spells, bestowed upon them by their deity for correct and diligent prayers and deeds."

But in the 1e DMG Gygax reveals that first and second level cleric spells are not being granted by gods or supernatural beings at all in his default 1e D&D cosmology, third to fifth are being granted not by gods but by servants of gods, and gods only directly grant sixth and seventh level spells.

Moldvay in B/X Basic says that "Clerics are humans who have dedicated themselves to the service of a god or goddess. They are trained in fighting and casting spells. As a cleric advances in level, he or she is granted the use of more and more spells. However, clerics do not receive any spells until they reach 2nd level (and have proven their devotion to their god or goddess)." and then never mentions gods again.

And 2e has the full on spellcasting priests of non-deity forces and philosophies.

The B/X and 1e interpretations are what I use, more or less. Clerics follow gods. If you get your divine magic from something else, you're not a cleric.

 

[Maxperson]

In Eberron it is explicitly stated within the lore that the gods do not interact with mortals in the way they do in other settings. Religions are much more like in real life, since there's no way to actually communicate with or confirm the existence of gods. The Silver Flame is the closest example of a physical manifestation of divinity, but it is a literal a pyre of silver flame in a physical place that is worshiped because it marks the spot where a champion and a couatl bound a demon overlord. Eberron also has the Blood of Vol, which as was mentioned earlier, is based on the idea of the Divinity Within which allows one to draw upon the untapped power inherent within themselves and all things to create miracles. The gods don't walk the world in Eberron, and if they exist at all they are so far removed from the affairs of mortals that they may as well not exist.

Sure, but this is one of the two major reasons that I don't play in or run Eberron. It's okay for a setting to be like this. It's not okay for this to be the default of the game. I don't mind it as an option, but a major part of the class identity of clerics is that they truly get power from and know that their gods exist.

 

[Minigiant]

So are you saying since there is no divine on Dark Sun you would rewrite Dark Sun to remove their clerics because elementals are not divine?

That or clerics are primal

 

[Scribe]

And 2e has the full on spellcasting priests of non-deity forces and philosophies.

So what you are saying is not only has this been the default for the longest running most successful and overwhelming population of game, but its been like this in some form since 1989, so 34 years.

 

[UngainlyTitan]

Because there are many, many other games for people who want different boundaries. D&D does not need to appeal to everyone. No game does.

That is a pointless exercise. It is a boundary you or even WoTC cannot enforce. You are doing something similar to trying to hold back the tide.
I mean sure you can enforce it at your table, and you can refuse to engage with game that step outside your boundaries, but the zeitgeist goes where it will.

 

[TwoSix]

Well, unless you are Oath of Conquest. I’m pretty sure those guys don’t call themselves paladins. Or the Oaths of the Ancients types.

I'm also totally on board with someone playing a class that considers themselves an entirely different concept.

 

[Voadam]

If someone betrays Athea, the goddess of nonbelief, she instantly robs them of any powers they might have--and she knows, instantaneously, of the betrayal, so there is zero time between "someone has broken faith with me" and "I have shut down all troublemakers." That is literally the text of the rules in 3e.

I'd quibble a bit here.

The rules for 3.5 ex-clerics say

"A cleric who grossly violates the code of conduct required by his god (generally by acting in ways opposed to the god’s alignment or purposes) loses all spells and class features, except for armor and shield proficiencies and proficiency with simple weapons."

So while clerical spellcasting is tied to not grossly violating the code of conduct, it does not have to be an instant active deific surveillance state.

To me it more implies a type of geasa type of situation tied to clerical casting, an automatic thing outside of the god's direct control, not active intervention by the deity. A deity could take actions on their own such as intervening to take action against a wayward champion but this seems a bit different.

The implications for story purposes are mostly the same though, grossly violative stuff means no casting so no really corrupt priests in the good Pelorian hierarchy.

It would allow a number of schisms and heresies to exist though as grossly violating a code of conduct can be a high bar depending on the specific code which can vary significantly.

3.0 Deities and Demigods gave gods fairly focused omniscient sight into their specific portfolio areas of concern, so there is a separate deific surveillance state going on.

 

[Voadam]

So, a divine caster like a Cleric, Paladin, Druid etc don't need any actual divine link to power and can just use "The power of my inner belief )or love or friendship or self respect etc) to gain divine powers.

Do Monks need to train in the martial arts to gain a kamehameha?

In 2e most TSR monks were full on divine spellcasting priests just like clerics. So . . .